Wearing Uniform in Public (merged)

[Bzzliteyr]

I had my RSM in Montreal show me the dress commitee received back in 2009.  It was as fun to read back then.

 

[blackberet17]

Good to see the standard is being maintained in the 17th  >.

Now I need to know how you know that!

I also acquired the nickname Mr. Skittles, but that's a different story.

 

[NavalMoose]

[

 

[cupper]

In my first unit as an OCdt. I was referred to as SLJO "Shity Little Jobs Officer"

I was always told never to acknowledge them, as it would only build up their sense of hope and well being. >

 

[Old EO Tech]

Back in the days to which Jim Seggie refers (Officers and ORs), officer cadets were categorized as "subordinate officers."

NCO has long roots in British Commonwealth/Empire military, if anything the US borrowed it from us   The US does use the term "non-com" which is strictly an Americanism.  If in doubt use the Defence Terminology Bank on the DWAN, NCO is still an approved acronym.  NCM is a term coined by the CF in the 90's to replace the rather archaic OR, Other Ranks term.  It is not a replacement for NCO, WO or Pte when these terms should be used instead.  And despite it's regular use there is no such official term as JrNCM or SrNCM :-/

OCdt/NCdt are still "subordinate officers" though the term is another one not used much anymore.  As they also qualify as Junior Officers under it's definition of Capt and below.  Prior to the NDA changes in 97 OCdt could not actually issue commands to anyone, since 97 they are full Junior Officers and can legally issue commands.  In the Army we still use the term "subbie" to refer to Junior Officers, as an abbreviation of Subaltern Officers which is borrowed(anglicized) from the French word for Junior.

 

[dapaterson]

Subbies are 2Lts / Lts; Junior Officers includes Captain.

The NDA does not include definitions of subordinate officer, junior officer or senior officer.  However, an OCdt is defined as an officer under the definitions in the act.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Subbies are 2Lts / Lts; Junior Officers includes Captain.

The NDA does not include definitions of subordinate officer, junior officer or senior officer.  However, an OCdt is defined as an officer under the definitions in the act.

Well there is no real point in arguing over what a subbie is or is not since there is no official definition, but in my unit I can say it definitely includes junior Capt's, I know this for a fact as they are all going "subbie Christmas caroling" to the senior officers residences as part of the calendar of events prior to the holiday leave block.

Maybe the NDA doesn't define levels of officers but since the DTB(as well as the CF Manual of Abbreviations published in 2010 with amendments in July 2011) does include those terms as official, I'd have to assume that their definitions are doctrine under the authority of the CDS.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Rank Structure

I've never heard of a OCdt referred to as a Junior Officer before.  OCdt are not yet commissioned and are Subordinate Officers IAW our rank structure, but considered Officers nonetheless.

From QR & O, Vol I, Art 1.02 - Definitions: (* Indicates definition drawn from the National Defence Act.)

"non-commissioned member" (militaire du rang)
means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces; *

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)
means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;    (makes sense that MCpl is not there, because a MCpl's rank is that of Cpl)

"officer" (officier)
means
a. a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
b. a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
c. any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; *


*these official definitions, of course, do not account for environmental/Branch/Regimental/Unit/Base or any other unofficial *isms* that are tossed about in the CF of today.  ;D

** reading this also makes me wonder what it would look like to see, say a OCdt with one week in the CF give a "lawful command" to the School RSM at CFLRS or the Infantry School or something.  >

 

[Loachman]

In the Army we still use the term "subbie" to refer to Junior Officers, as an abbreviation of Subaltern Officers which is borrowed(anglicized) from the French word for Junior.

I have never, in over thirty-nine years, heard a Captain referred to as a subaltern.

 

[Shamrock]

I have never, in over thirty-nine years, heard a Captain referred to as a subaltern.

It now refers to any officer on his first Regimental tour.  Quite a few officers arrive at the regiments from training and are promptly promoted.

 

[Good2Golf]

It now refers to any officer on his first Regimental tour.  Quite a few officers arrive at the regiments from training and are promptly promoted.

Good point. 

In the old days, a Captain was often a more senior/experienced guy on unit...tac hel Captains were most likely Aircraft Commanders. 

Now, it is possible, due to long training periods and waits, for a unit to receive a new Captain who may not even be qualified on aircraft type yet...

Regards
G2G

 

[cupper]

I have never, in over thirty-nine years, heard a Captain referred to as a subaltern.

Although the QR&O's sets out the accepted rank structure and terms thereof, there are other references to various ranks and appointments in other documents and manuals which may or may not conform to those in the QR&O's.

The example that comes to mind is the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial. The various positions during parades use terms such as subalterns and supernumeraries without a specific reference to rank.

Just my  :2c:

 

[blackberet17]

Rank Structure
** reading this also makes me wonder what it would look like to see, say a OCdt with one week in the CF give a "lawful command" to the School RSM at CFLRS or the Infantry School or something.  >

Done. Okay, maybe not a week, but he only had a few months in, and tried to give an order to the SSM.

Close enough? It was funny as $hit to watch...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

So how many extras did the poor lad get.....

;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

...and how did he explain how that pacestick got stuck there?  ;D

 

[Loachman]

tac hel Captains were most likely Aircraft Commanders.

So were a lot of Lieutenants.

 

[Good2Golf]

Done. Okay, maybe not a week, but he only had a few months in, and tried to give an order to the SSM.

Close enough? It was funny as $hit to watch...

Okay, so after everyone was done getting their $hits and giggles from watching the OCdt get set up for facing the wrath of a Sergaent-Major, how many of the guys thought that it was worth the temporary amusement to set someone up for "failure" from the start...well done lads, and just one more reason why the chasm exists between some officers and NCMs.  Ha ha, some SM vents a spleen on an OCdt who dare issue an order...just remember who has (or will have) the vested authority to COMMAND...vice advise or pontificate. NCMs who truly understood the symbiotic relationship between Commander and Senior NCM Advisor get it...others who like to take the pi$$ out of a young subaltern for their own egotistically-driven reasons only do themselves and the NCMs a disservice with their shortsighted actions.

Put the self-centric "been there, done that, you don't know what the lads are thinking..." aside and help the soon-to-be-commissioned officer learn to lead in the manner that a professional senior soldier should do...

Regards
G2G

 

[ModlrMike]

Okay, so after everyone was done getting their $hits and giggles from watching the OCdt get set up for facing the wrath of a Sergaent-Major, how many of the guys thought that it was worth the temporary amusement to set someone up for "failure" from the start...well done lads, and just one more reason why the chasm exists between some officers and NCMs.  Ha ha, some SM vents a spleen on an OCdt who dare issue an order...just remember who has (or will have) the vested authority to COMMAND...vice advise or pontificate. NCMs who truly understood the symbiotic relationship between Commander and Senior NCM Advisor get it...others who like to take the pi$$ out of a young subaltern for their own egotistically-driven reasons only do themselves and the NCMs a disservice with their shortsighted actions.

Put the self-centric "been there, done that, you don't know what the lads are thinking..." aside and help the soon-to-be-commissioned officer learn to lead in the manner that a professional senior soldier should do...

Regards
G2G

You presume much. There's every probability that he was the architect of his own misfortune.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Okay, so after everyone was done getting their $hits and giggles from watching the OCdt get set up for facing the wrath of a Sergaent-Major, how many of the guys thought that it was worth the temporary amusement to set someone up for "failure" from the start...well done lads, and just one more reason why the chasm exists between some officers and NCMs.  Ha ha, some SM vents a spleen on an OCdt who dare issue an order...just remember who has (or will have) the vested authority to COMMAND...vice advise or pontificate. NCMs who truly understood the symbiotic relationship between Commander and Senior NCM Advisor get it...others who like to take the pi$$ out of a young subaltern for their own egotistically-driven reasons only do themselves and the NCMs a disservice with their shortsighted actions.

Put the self-centric "been there, done that, you don't know what the lads are thinking..." aside and help the soon-to-be-commissioned officer learn to lead in the manner that a professional senior soldier should do...

Regards
G2G

Were you the OCdt?

 

[Edward Campbell]

You know, every fearsome sergeant major was, once upon a time, a young, inexpoerienced, private soldier who needed guidance, training and examples provided by NCOs and officers. Every colonel was an officer cadet. When the system works, and it doesn't always, NCOs set a good example by treating officer cadets with care and due respect ... officer training is, should be anyway, tough and rigorous; when it is does well it is done by NCOs and involves contact with troops. Equally, however, when it is done poorly it is, generally, also done by NCOs and also done in contact with troops but, sooner rather than later, a better NCO needs to come along and clean up: teaching the troops, by example, how good NCOs work with officer cadets under training.

We all started at the bottom; we all worked our way up - to corporal, warrant officer and so on, and to lieutenant, colonel and so on, too. Most of us learned the right lessons from our colleagues - of whatever ranks, but some scraped through as twits and bullies ... and I have seen them, equally, in the NCO and officer ranks.