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To Armour or Not to Armour ....... Armoured Vehicles

Kirkhill

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Interesting article from the Brit MoD.

There have be ongoing complaints about the use of a lightly armoured, totally enclosed Landrover variant called the Snatch.  It was designed for the agressive policing in Northern Ireland and was then exported for use in Iraq.

In the early days in Iraq the Snatch was the only option available to the Brits unless they wanted to go with heavy tracks.  Many troops died in them.  That prompted the Brits to play around with Vikings and Bulldogs and Mastiffs and uparmoured FV432s and Warriors.  They now have a pretty full slate of options for the ground commanders to choose from.  But the Snatch is still in use........and 37 troops have died in them.

Hutton: Snatch essential to operations
An Equipment and Logistics news article
16 Dec 08


Defence Secretary John Hutton has announced today that he will not be instituting a public inquiry into the use of Snatch Land Rovers by the British military on operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.


In a statement to the House of Commons today, Tuesday 16 December 2008, Mr Hutton acknowledged that there is widespread public concern over the thirty-seven deaths of British servicemen and women in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of injuries sustained while using Snatch Land Rovers but stated that, after very careful consideration, he has decided that a public inquiry would not be the right way to proceed.

Paying respect to the bravery and dedication of each of those thirty-seven Service personnel killed using the Snatch, he went on to state that the clear advice from military operational commanders, unanimously endorsed by the Chiefs of Staff, is that Snatch remains essential to the success of operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Acknowledging suggestions that more heavily armoured vehicles, such as the Warrior or the very successful Mastiff, should replace the Snatch, Mr Hutton said while these are good vehicles and have an important role to play in operations, they cannot be used for all purposes.

He said that the British military's tasks in Iraq and Afghanistan are largely ones of counter-insurgency and to do this there is a need to win the support and confidence of local people and the use of heavily armoured vehicles can cause serious damage to roads, buildings, irrigation channels and drainage systems, factors which can inflame local opinion against UK troops, which works in favour of the enemy and actually increases the threat levels to our people.

It is for these reasons, Mr Hutton went on, that military commanders require a range of vehicles, from which they can choose the one best suited to the required task and, in this context, there remains a critical requirement for a Light Protected Patrol Vehicle (LPPV), such as the Snatch Land Rover, which is small, mobile and agile, and ideal for allowing engagement with the local population, often in areas which would be inaccessible to heavier vehicles.


"The clear advice to me from military operational commanders, unanimously endorsed by the Chiefs of Staff, is that Snatch remains essential to the success of our operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan."

Defence Secretary John Hutton
Mr Hutton also stressed that the Snatch is not the "unarmoured" vehicle which it is sometimes claimed to be; although lightly armoured, that armour, he said, has saved many lives in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He concluded his statement saying that the Snatch Land Rover has undergone a number of technical enhancements since its first deployment to Iraq in 2003 and, most recently, the current variant, the Snatch 2A, has been modified to enhance significantly its power, mobility and protection, effectively generating a new variant, the Snatch Vixen, especially configured for operations in Afghanistan.

Some of these vehicles are already in service in Afghanistan and over the coming year the MOD will be increasing the size of the fleet. This, Mr Hutton said, together with the £700m procurement of new vehicles which the Prime Minister announced in October, will enable us to continue reducing the scope of the Snatch 2A vehicle's role until it is used only within our camps.

Finally, Mr Hutton said, we do not believe there is a better vehicle than Snatch Vixen currently available anywhere in the world to fulfil the LPPV requirement. But we are also looking to the future and anticipating new threats, and we have begun a programme to develop the next generation of LPPV which will in due course take the place of Snatch Vixen.

Mr Hutton's statement in full follows:

Use of the Snatch Land Rover

The House will be aware of widespread public concern over the thirty-seven deaths of British servicemen and women in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of injuries sustained while using Snatch Land Rovers. I have recently been asked to institute a public inquiry into the use of these vehicles. After very careful consideration, I have decided that a public inquiry would not be the right way to proceed. Given the level of Parliamentary and public interest in this issue, I want to explain to the House the reasons for my decision. First, however, I wish to put on record my appreciation of the bravery and dedication of each of those thirty-seven people who have so tragically died in the service of their country.


I have sought comprehensive advice on whether the continued use of Snatch is necessary, particularly given the substantial investment we have made in new protected vehicles in recent years. The clear advice to me from military operational commanders, unanimously endorsed by the Chiefs of Staff, is that Snatch remains essential to the success of our operations in both Iraq and Afghanistan. In the light of this authoritative assessment, I have decided that it would be inappropriate and unnecessary to conduct an inquiry. These are matters on which I must rely on the considered judgement of military commanders who have experience of conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan and access to specialised military engineering expertise.

It has been suggested that Snatch should be replaced by more heavily armoured vehicles such as the Warrior or the very successful Mastiff. These are good vehicles and they have an important role to play in our operations. But they cannot be used for all purposes. Even the new Ridgback, the smaller version of Mastiff, will be three times heavier than Snatch. In Iraq and Afghanistan, the nature of the operating environment means that heavier vehicles, which are often constrained largely to main roads, are simply unable to access the places we need to be in order to deliver our objectives.

Furthermore, our tasks in Iraq and Afghanistan are largely ones of counter-insurgency. To do this, we need to win the support and confidence of local people. This can only be done by face-to-face interaction, demonstrating to the local people that we are working in their interests. Our experience in Iraq and Afghanistan has proven that better armoured vehicles, which tend by definition to be larger and heavier, are viewed by the local population as aggressive and intimidating. Their size and weight means too that they can cause serious damage to roads, buildings, irrigation channels and drainage systems. All these factors can inflame local opinion against UK troops – working in favour of our enemy and actually increasing the threat levels to our people.


"Snatch itself is not the 'unarmoured' vehicle which it is sometimes claimed to be; although lightly armoured, that armour has saved many lives in Iraq and Afghanistan."
Defence Secretary John Hutton
It is for these reasons that military commanders require a range of vehicles, from which they can choose the one best suited to the required task – and in this context, there remains a critical requirement for a Light Protected Patrol Vehicle (LPPV), such as the Snatch Land Rover. Small, mobile and agile, it is ideal for allowing engagement with the local population, often in areas which would be inaccessible to heavier vehicles.

However, Snatch itself is not the "unarmoured" vehicle which it is sometimes claimed to be; although lightly armoured, that armour has saved many lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. In addition, the Snatch's ballistic protection is derived from composite materials, rather than steel. This limits splintering when penetrated, and means that casualty rates are lower than in comparable vehicles.

It is also important to be clear that we cannot assume that if all those 37 servicemen and women had been in more heavily armoured vehicles they would have survived. We cannot make Snatch, or indeed any other vehicle, invulnerable; any vehicle can be overmatched if faced with an overwhelming attack. It is precisely for this reason that armour can only ever be one factor in the way we protect our people. We employ a layered approach to protection, of which armour is but one part, and the innermost layer. We seek first to avoid being seen by the enemy; then, if seen, to avoid being hit. In both cases, a low profile, coupled with speed and agility, are important factors which critically complement our well-tested tactics, techniques and procedures. The recent introduction of the light-strike Jackal vehicle, which has proved very popular, demonstrates the importance we place on these factors, none of which are characteristic of more heavily armoured vehicles. Finally, if hit, we seek to prevent the vehicle from being penetrated. This is the sole reason for armouring our vehicles.


This is not by any means to say that nothing further can be done to protect those servicemen and women who need to operate LPPVs. The Snatch Land Rover has undergone a number of technical enhancements since its first deployment to Iraq in 2003. Most recently, we have modified the current variant, the Snatch 2A, to enhance significantly its power, mobility and protection. This effectively generates a new variant, the Snatch Vixen, especially configured for operations in Afghanistan. Some of these vehicles are already in service in Afghanistan and over the coming year we will be increasing the size of the fleet. This, together with the £700m procurement of new vehicles which the Prime Minister announced in October, will enable us to continue reducing the scope of the Snatch 2A vehicle's role until it is used only within our camps.

We do not believe that there is a better vehicle than Snatch Vixen currently available anywhere in the world to fulfil the LPPV requirement. But we are also looking to the future and anticipating new threats, and we have begun a programme to develop the next generation of LPPV which will in due course take the place of Snatch Vixen.

This seems to me to be in keeping with the discussion that the US Army and Marines are having wrt body armour.  Now people have been given the opportunity to increase their armour protection to a level that they feel is commensurate with the threat level they seem to be starting to opt for lower levels for tactical reasons.

A continuation of the discussion over range, mobility, firepower and protection - all of them dependent on the limited carrying capacity of platforms (soldier, horse, mule or AFV) and terrain.

Apparently Commanders and Soldiers still have to make hard choices.
 
The thing about "armour" is that there is always a weapon that can defeat it.  The more armour that is added, the larger the weapon to defeat it becomes.  More armour; more powerful mines/IEDs.  The job of a Commander is to decide which type of "armour" is best suited for the task.

Back when we first got the AVGP family of vehicles, we were looking at a "Training Vehicle" for conventional warfare.  The Armour was designed to defeat small arms fire up to 200 m (approx) and also had a "Swiss Cheese" type of philosophy in the design, in that larger calibre anti-armour wpns would penetrate and pass through, rather than ricochet around inside turning the crew and passengers into hamburger meat.  The AVGP had a rather good anti-mine design to it and that was perpetuated in the LAV series.  Although not designed as an "Operational" vehicle, the AVGP family was eventually sent on "Low Intensity", Peacekeeping missions overseas.  At the time, and under those circumstances, these vehicles proved to be adequate for the job.  Would they have survived for long in a High Intensity situation?  No.  It would have been suicide to have committed them to such danger.
 
The base "snatch" is pert much an equivalent of the "GWagon" we've gotten from Mercedes.
Both are good vehicles.... but they have their limitations.  If you are going into any area where the threat level is high.... you might want to reconsider what to use for your ride.

We started Afghanistan in the tired old Iltis.  A vehicle that I still consider to be a good little utility truck.... but it will not do as an armoured car.  It was small & could travel the small narrow lanes of Kabul.  The open cab was a two sided blade.  You were exposed BUT your "feel" for the local population was greater.

At present, the family of vehicles we currently use in & around KAF are right up there with the best of them... IMHO
 
all depends...
but George has served & is a fairly knowledgeable fella in the Armoured corp.
Hales & overwatchdownunder hail from the Australian military / armoured or armoured related
Ironduke 57 is right up there... but is a member of the German army
Bunch of fellas from the American military

Fill your boots - what's your pleasure ???
 
gregroberts@sympatico.ca said:
Thanks - but George who? - and do you know if i can contact him and if so do you have an email address or contact info?  
George Wallace, who recently posted in this thread. ;)
 
gregroberts@sympatico.ca said:
Thanks - but George who? - and do you know if i can contact him and if so do you have an email address or contact info?   

If I may, I think you might want to change your screen name unless you want to be flooded by spam mail.
 
Thanks for the tip - I changed the screen name.  What I am interested in learning, from someone who really understands the issues - is whether our troops have the best light armoured vehicles in the field - or whether the troops feel that the government could do a better job in providing a safer vehicle?  Specifics would be great if someone has the time.
 
Before asking tons of questions you should do a little bit of reading... cause these questions have been asked and answered umpteen times before.

All the info you ever wanted to know about the Armoured branch is here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,3.0.html

Then you can read about world news & international affairs here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,61.0.html


And then there is always Military current affairs & news found here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,6.0.html

Once you've done a bit of reading & start posting, you'll find George Wallace & he might even be willing to talk to you.

BTW - Welcome to Army,ca
 
Until some true advances in materials science come to fruition, armouring a vehicle has to be done on a basis of your mission requirements. Without going into too many details, I know that the British forces in Afganistan use Land Rover 110s with nothing more than Kevlar blankets on the floor in some situations since anything larger or heavier will either get stuck or not be able to navigate through the narrow roads/trails where they are operating. The British also brought "Jackal" patrol vehicles for Helmand province, which can carry add on armour panels, but are often seen in their bare-assed state; essentially open platforms with multiple crew stations and weapons mounts.

You can also look at the MRAP Light thread to see some other ideas along these lines.
 
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