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The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

Humphrey Bogart

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There are actually several cohorts within the millennial grouping. And to be honest I would probably classify them as almost three separate distinct groups but I digress.
Agreed. I was born in the Mid-80s so I think my experiences are different than say, someone born in 1996 (the later generation of Millenial)
Quite so. I’m not debating laziness or entitlement though.
I understand what you're saying, the point I was trying to make was the following:

1. There are the way things ought to be; then
2. There are the way things are.

We seem to be focused on trying to make the imaginary/aspirational possible while ignoring the realities on the ground.
Exactly. It’s actually harder now than it was.
I don't agree that it's harder. Harder is the wrong word, it's that the strategies being employed are no longer working as well as they once did.

The housing issue in Canada is classic "law of diminishing returns" in that as more and more money is spent, the less benefit is incurred.

The old strategies employed by our Parents and their generation are no longer working, they've essentially run their course.

We have advantages and new ways of making money that our Parents never had though:

1. The Internet + Media
2. The Speed at which we are able to obtain and process information
3. Near Instantaneous Access to Global Financial Markets
4. Alternative Investment Vehicles like Cryptocurrency, etc.
5. Ability to travel and relocate relatively cheaply.

The problem is that very few people are creating new strategies to take advantage of these significant advantages, they are instead relying on what their parents and those before them did.

Again, this points to one of the issues I pointed out. Student debt is a big thing in this country. Why? Because as I peresented, the boomer gen shifted to increased accredited education for everything. Meaning more debt earlier in life and less productive working years earning wealth sooner.

Sure. But we went through and are still going through the mentality that university is the only gateway to success and we don’t promote those jobs enough. A product of an education system create by the previous generation.
Again, this is just poor financial literacy and a lack of understanding of the concept of dollar value.

If you go to School for basket weaving and are willing to take on enormous amounts of debt to learn to weave baskets, are you:

A. A poor & hard done by soul that has been wrongfully robbed of their future? Or

B. An idiot who doesn't understand the value of a dollar?

You may think something is worth something, that doesn't mean it actually is.

The sense of entitlement of my generation and those younger than me seems to be getting worse as the years go by. I tell people all the time: Nobody owes you anything. The sooner you realize it, the better off you'll be.

Glad to hear that your sector offers what used to be the norm. OJT style system vs what we have developed over the decades in terms of over education and accreditation.
This is actually the norm in a lot of industries. Mining, Oil & Gas, Railroads, etc all work off OJT style systems. I just drove by a trucking company the other day who was advertising paid training and starting salaries of $48.00 an hour.

Ironically, these are also jobs that pay some of the highest salaries in Canada and that nobody seems to want to do.

The problem is that salary no longer motivâtes like it once did.
The only people who aren't motivated by money are again, people who don't understand the value of a dollar. My grandmother (RIP) said two things to me about money that have stuck with me:

1. I've been rich and I've been poor and rich is better; and

2. Money can't buy happiness, but it sure helps!

I don't know why someone wouldn't want to have more money? I personally want to accumulate as much of the stuff as humanly possible.

I'm willing to quit whatever I am doing and move anywhere if it means I can potentially make more of it. I quit the CAF on a whim about 6 months ago, threw most of my stuff away and moved with my spouse to take a shot at a new career. I am not done yet, this is the beginning and there will be much more to come after this.

Again, it’s isn’t so much that (albeit I am sure it is for some). But goes to what motivates them.

I don’t understand millennials and I suspect I will keep struggling to understand them but what motivates them to get to where they will get is not the way you or I did it.
I don't think anything motivates most Millenials and younger people. A lot of them suffer from what I call, learned helplessness.

They were coddled their entire life and now instead of their parents coddling them, they want the Government to do it.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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And where on earth do people get these jobs in the first place? It isn’t as simple as just have a “high school diploma and show up”. Pretty much every job out there that isn’t a fast food joint wants you have “MiNiMuM tHrEe yEaRs ExPiErEnCe” or some bogus crap like that, even though a 10 year old can do it. Literally no on the job training at all since they want all the workers to have “past experience”
So no, there aren’t exactly “plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money”
I had no prior Railroading experience prior to applying.

I work with a few guys that got kicked out of School for being "the bad kids" 🤣 and they are now making more than 95% of Canadians.

Approximately 60% of new hires at the railway quit or get fired prior to qualifying. Some get qualified then quit because they don't actually want the responsibility of running a train carrying $$$millions of dollars of goods.

Again, nobody owes you anything, if you want something bad enough, go get it. Stop being so negative. A lot of people fail because they don't even try.

I work with guys that initially got declined by the railway HR but didn't quit, went to a job fair in person, and the Superintendent happened to like them and offered a job.
 

Fishbone Jones

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It's OK, the post national global state will provide for your needs. You just have to do what you're told and don't make waves. You'll get a sleep cubicle and three squares of some processed plants and crickets. Taco Tuesdays will be something to tell the kids about the old days. Soylent Green anyone? 😂

Soylent-Green-1973-00-28-16.jpg
 

Brad Sallows

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One of the "old strategies" that probably still works: buy undeveloped lot on outskirts of town or even outside the town; build on it. (This is the reality of what some people call the "good luck" of an earlier generation.)
 

Fishbone Jones

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Through out the thread, we've heard tales of woe. Where's my house, where's my $100,000 job where I'm entitled to tell my boss, when I'll work, for how long and how hard? Where's my new truck? Why can't I have what Boomers have? I don't stand a chance in todays world. And then the inevitable, when they don't get the answer they want, they blame someone else🥺

It's out there. Go find it and earn it.

I'm starting to rehash.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Is it possible to move the intergenerational bun-fight to a different thread?
I can think of one or two places to put it. You might need to roll it in a little ball and use some lube, but it'll fit there. ;)
 

YZT580

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One of the "old strategies" that probably still works: buy undeveloped lot on outskirts of town or even outside the town; build on it. (This is the reality of what some people call the "good luck" of an earlier generation.)
Except that the land on the outskirts of town is now 45 km. or further out. One thing though is I don't see anyone building 1100 sq. ft. basic homes anymore. They are all opting for 2000 plus on 30 to 50 ft. lots and all advertised by the preface "luxury". Building costs for a basic home are still around 350000 plus land value from what my local hardware tells me so 5000000 total except that no one is building them
 

Fishbone Jones

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Except that the land on the outskirts of town is now 45 km. or further out. One thing though is I don't see anyone building 1100 sq. ft. basic homes anymore. They are all opting for 2000 plus on 30 to 50 ft. lots and all advertised by the preface "luxury". Building costs for a basic home are still around 350000 plus land value from what my local hardware tells me so 5000000 total except that no one is building them
Lease to own the land and build your own tiny house until you can afford better maybe?

If you don't want to listen to me, Pierre explains pretty well what is going on. And why most people are having a hard time making ends meet. Not just Millennials. One cheque away from poverty. And trudeau wants that paycheque as well.

And I'll keep pounding the point, that Millennials aren't blameless in this current government's place in history. I don't know a single Boomer that gave trudeau a second glance. Boomers knew communism and what it looks like, thanks to us knowing Pierre. And Justin is proud to say he learned his politics at his father's knee. And it shows. Now he's in a dick measuring contest with Dad's ghost and legacy and we are his edge.

You reap what you sow.

I just want to make one more quick observation. The Greatest Generation and Boomers put man on the moon in 1969. It was done with slide rules, physics and a pencil and paper. Today, a simple burner phone has more computer power than the mission in 69. But we kept going up there. 11 more astronauts until 72. What happened to the drive, innovation, the dreams and the just plain guts that allowed us to do that? I don't see that anymore.

Anyway, back to our regular programming.

 

YZT580

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Lease to own the land and build your own tiny house until you can afford better maybe?

If you don't want to listen to me, Pierre explains pretty well what is going on. And why most people are having a hard time making ends meet. Not just Millennials. One cheque away from poverty. And trudeau wants that paycheque as well.

And I'll keep pounding the point, that Millennials aren't blameless in this current government's place in history. I don't know a single Boomer that gave trudeau a second glance. Boomers knew communism and what it looks like, thanks to us knowing Pierre. And Justin is proud to say he learned his politics at his father's knee. And it shows. Now he's in a dick measuring contest with Dad's ghost and legacy and we are his edge.

You reap what you sow.

I just want to make one more quick observation. The Greatest Generation and Boomers put man on the moon in 1969. It was done with slide rules, physics and a pencil and paper. Today, a simple burner phone has more computer power than the mission in 69. But we kept going up there. 11 more astronauts until 72. What happened to the drive, innovation, the dreams and the just plain guts that allowed us to do that? I don't see that anymore.

Anyway, back to our regular programming.

it worked for the veterans coming home in '45. None of them had any savings to speak of. If you drive through the boroughs around Toronto you will see hundreds of 800 sq. ft. brick bungalows on 30 ft. lots. Elsewhere there are storey and a half frame or insulbrick (when built) with two bedrooms up, one on the main floor and only one bathroom and that was on the ground floor as well.
 

lenaitch

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From a purely selfish point of view, as a possible future client, rather than a provider, I am thankful the new breed is better educated than we were.
Your former profession is a prime example. Back in the day, your predecessors, particularly in the rurals, were rightly called 'ambulance drivers' or 'ambulance attendants'. Scoop and run with basic first aid, probably an orderly at the local hospital who's pager went off. First responder care, auto extracation and better vehicle design are part of the reason our provincial vehicle fatality rate is about 1/3 it was in the '70s.
 

Colin Parkinson

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One of the "old strategies" that probably still works: buy undeveloped lot on outskirts of town or even outside the town; build on it. (This is the reality of what some people call the "good luck" of an earlier generation.)
Unless of course you have a mountain there or a ocean. Anything around here that is undeveloped, is because it's in the ALR, Flood zone or has major geo-technical issues.
 

lenaitch

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That's too bad. I actually started Grade 9 in Scarborough in what was then called "Science, Technology and Trades" which gave me six shop classes: wood, metal, automotive, electrical, machine and design - it was 100% male. The other two choices were "Arts and Science" which took you to Grade 13 and was the university prep stream, and Business and Commerce which was basically typing, bookkeeping and secretarial - the latter being 100% female. Both ST&T and B&C were Grade 12 level and the best you could do with that was Ryerson at the time which was then a polytechnical.

I transferred to A&S for Grade 10 primarily because a new high school was opening up just down the street from where I lived (rather than a 15 minute bus ride for the one I was in previously) and it didn't have an ST&T program but it did have A&S with a shop option which I took for my remaining years and which led me to joining the school's stage crew.

I think the thing for many boards and schools is that shop classes were much harder to manage and fund (not to mention safety issues) then a history or English class. That of course is short sighted in the extreme but a reality amongst bureaucracies. I went briefly to work as an electrician apprentice after high school before transferring from the ResF to the RegF. The shop experience has served me well in life. My wife and I do all our own home renovations from fine cabinet work to building an addition onto our house including drafting and wiring and plumbing. I simply can't comprehend folks that have no idea which end of a hammer to strike a nail with.

ST&T was a great career stream which probably covered a good part of what community college teaches now during first year. It got young folks earning a paycheck much earlier in life then they do now. Most of the guys I had started Grade 9 with had been on the job somewhere for two or three years before I joined the Army after Grade 13.

🍻
Wow, did that bring back some memories! I went to a North York high school that had every shop imaginable plus a computer that they had to build an addition to house. I was a 'pioneer'(?) in a 5-year ST&T program. We were destined for university; engineering, Architecture, BSc, etc. so weren't allowed to take most of the shops. We were limited to electricity/electronics and machine/architectural drafting and looked enviously at our peers who got to take the cool shops. I never went to university, or Grade 13.

You are right about the 4-year program intended for the trades, but forgot about the 2-year programs. Those programs were to accommodate the kids who intended to stay in school only as long as the law required - or it was a condition of their probation.

The wife went to D&M Thompson BTW. 😁
 

lenaitch

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There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money. I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00. Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.

Want to know what the qualifications are to get in to the trade? High School GED and you show up to work when they call you and do your work safely and without complaint.

We actually can't hire anyone right now because nobody wants to do the work. Don't get me wrong, it's hard work, I just got called in and am going to work from midnight until probably 10am tomorrow morning in 0 degree temperatures and rain, but we are well compensated for it.

The only people we are actually able to hire seem to be immigrants. The average Canadian youth seems to think this type of work is beneath them.
I was part of a discussion on another thread with a poster who is a running trade for a carrier in the GTA and he said exactly the same thing. When recruits find out they have to start on the spare board with inconsistent hours and - gasp - have to work weekends, they walk. It seems the concept of seniority and starting at the bottom aren't recognized much anymore. I suppose money isn't the same motivator when you still get to live with your folks.

My brother was in the hospitality industry all of his career and part of it was managing a group of restaurants in the GTA. The biggest frustration for managers, and this is in the 80s and 90s, was staffing. Servers, et al worked until they had enough for their rent, vacation, or whatever else they had their eye on, then just stopped showing up. Their immediate needs of the moment satisfied, they would find another job.

I don't know if it is a generational thing or an urban thing - or a combination of the two, but I don't get the concept of not being willing to move to earn a living or follow a career. Heck, some downtown Toronto urbanites wouldn't even consider moving north of Bloor. The apparent need to be near family, friends, you favourite club or restaurant, seems to override everything else.
 
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I was part of a discussion on another thread with a poster who is a running trade for a carrier in the GTA and he said exactly the same thing. When recruits find out they have to start on the spare board with inconsistent hours and - gasp - have to work weekends, they walk. It seems the concept of seniority and starting at the bottom aren't recognized much anymore. I suppose money isn't the same motivator when you still get to live with your folks.

My brother was in the hospitality industry all of his career and part of it was managing a group of restaurants in the GTA. The biggest frustration for managers, and this is in the 80s and 90s, was staffing. Servers, et al worked until they had enough for their rent, vacation, or whatever else they had their eye on, then just stopped showing up. Their immediate needs of the moment satisfied, they would find another job.

I don't know if it is a generational thing or an urban thing - or a combination of the two, but I don't get the concept of not being willing to move to earn a living or follow a career. Heck, some downtown Toronto urbanites wouldn't even consider moving north of Bloor. The apparent need to be near family, friends, you favourite club or restaurant, seems to override everything else.
Moving isn’t as simple as “just move”.
The costs associated with moving are not cheap at all, and from what I hear from people in the CAF, it’s takes a toll having to move every 3-4 years especially if you have a spouse and kids.
 

mariomike

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Your former profession is a prime example. Back in the day, your predecessors, particularly in the rurals, were rightly called 'ambulance drivers' or 'ambulance attendants'. Scoop and run with basic first aid, probably an orderly at the local hospital who's pager went off. First responder care, auto extracation and better vehicle design are part of the reason our provincial vehicle fatality rate is about 1/3 it was in the '70s.

I don't know how they did it out of town.

The Metropolitan Toronto Department of Emergency Services (D.E.S.) ran a mandatory 160 hour recruit training program since 1967.

In 1973, that was expanded to 1,400 hours. Then expanded to two years. Before you can even apply.

Now, there is an Honours Bachelor of Science degree program at U of T.

That's in addition to in-service training, and 12-18 months probation.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Moving isn’t as simple as “just move”.
The costs associated with moving are not cheap at all, and from what I hear from people in the CAF, it’s takes a toll having to move every 3-4 years especially if you have a spouse and kids.
It cost me under $4500.00 to move halfway across the Country. Moving is also something you can claim on taxes at the end of the year if you move for work.

My Company also gave me a $5000.00 signing bonus so it actually didn't cost me anything.

I planned the move over six months.
 
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