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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

btrudy

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I expect that we'll be seeing a report from the MP Complaints Commission.

That having been said, honestly IMHO it looks like folks are largely taking the family's claims that the texts would have exonerated the Major at face value, without any reasonable basis for that at this point. After all, the strong likelihood is that they already had the text messages anyways, provided to them by the complainant.

Are police obligated to take input from folks they suspect to be criminals, when investigating a crime? Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but from what I know, generally speaking the only reason police talk to folks they're investigating is to elicit a confession.
 

SupersonicMax

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I expect that we'll be seeing a report from the MP Complaints Commission.

That having been said, honestly IMHO it looks like folks are largely taking the family's claims that the texts would have exonerated the Major at face value, without any reasonable basis for that at this point. After all, the strong likelihood is that they already had the text messages anyways, provided to them by the complainant.

Are police obligated to take input from folks they suspect to be criminals, when investigating a crime? Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but from what I know, generally speaking the only reason police talk to folks they're investigating is to elicit a confession.
It’s not about the text 100% exonerating Cristian but rather, to at least have his chance to give his side of the story and give him fairness in the process. That lack of fairness (even if only perceived) led to someone not seeing a favourable outcome and that person took his own life.
 

SeaKingTacco

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I expect that we'll be seeing a report from the MP Complaints Commission.

That having been said, honestly IMHO it looks like folks are largely taking the family's claims that the texts would have exonerated the Major at face value, without any reasonable basis for that at this point. After all, the strong likelihood is that they already had the text messages anyways, provided to them by the complainant.

Are police obligated to take input from folks they suspect to be criminals, when investigating a crime? Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but from what I know, generally speaking the only reason police talk to folks they're investigating is to elicit a confession.
I thought that we were taking people’s claims at face value. Are you saying that people make up accusations?
 

Furniture

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I expect that we'll be seeing a report from the MP Complaints Commission.

That having been said, honestly IMHO it looks like folks are largely taking the family's claims that the texts would have exonerated the Major at face value, without any reasonable basis for that at this point. After all, the strong likelihood is that they already had the text messages anyways, provided to them by the complainant.

Are police obligated to take input from folks they suspect to be criminals, when investigating a crime? Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but from what I know, generally speaking the only reason police talk to folks they're investigating is to elicit a confession.
Looks like you're assuming guilt based on the claims of the complainant.

It sure sounds like the MPs had their "guilty bastard" to march in and weren't interested in looking into it any further.
 

Good2Golf

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That having been said, honestly IMHO it looks like folks are largely taking the family's claims that the texts would have exonerated the Major at face value, without any reasonable basis for that at this point.
Which folks? As others noted, the concern was that the alleged accused’ provision of information at hand was summarily refused by the investigating MP.


After all, the strong likelihood is that they already had the text messages anyways, provided to them by the complainant.
‘Strong likelihood’…does that pass your test for the depth of investigation for something that (I believe) everyone accepts is an issue to take seriously?
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Which folks? As others noted, the concern was that the alleged accused’ provision of information at hand was summarily refused by the investigating MP.



‘Strong likelihood’…does that pass your test for the depth of investigation for something that (I believe) everyone accepts is an issue to take seriously?
I read about this case in the media. Weird situation that sort of read like some sort of Swinger Club gone wrong.

Flaming On Fire GIF
 

Booter

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After all, the strong likelihood is that they already had the text messages anyways, provided to them by the complainant.
Absolutely not true. There would be no requirement for the complainant to show or even mention such a thing at all.

Like an incredible small unlikely chance- maybe perhaps they could have been aware of them? Maybe,

But complainants conceal things like texts all the time- even where they could be supported by them. Or where they contradict their version of events- even more so.

Victims of sexual assaults are embarrassed by the complaint, they make all types of decisions that don’t necessarily make “sense” to people in chairs watching. And that’s best case scenario.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Absolutely not true. There would be no requirement for the complainant to show or even mention such a thing at all.

Like an incredible small unlikely chance- maybe perhaps they could have been aware of them? Maybe,

But complainants conceal things like texts all the time- even where they could be supported by them. Or where they contradict their version of events- even more so.

Victims of sexual assaults are embarrassed by the complaint, they make all types of decisions that don’t necessarily make “sense” to people in chairs watching. And that’s best case scenario.
Jian Ghomeshi enters the chat, where extensive text messages that were not provided to authorities were brought forward in Court by the defence team.
 
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Navy_Pete

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I can't imagine from an investigator perspective if the accused is volunteering to speak to you, you wouldn't take the statement. Especially in a he said/she said type scenario you probably want both on file if you can get it, as that would seem to give you a number of avenues to dig into and may result in a stronger case against them.

Nice bit of tunnel vision though on the MP side, but don't expect anything other than this getting swept under a rug and written off as collateral damage.
 

QV

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I think everyone should wind their neck in a bit. Nobody here has a hot clue except what was in a CBC article. And the CBC is garbage.

Here's another article for you all to chew on. Maybe the CAF should avoid handing SA files to the RCMP? Let's pick and choose now... whos up?

"Grossly inadequate"

The CAF problem with sex assault files was not the investigators... it was keeping those cases within the military justice system and not sending them downtown where they belong.

If you want to shit on anything, shit on the CAF leadership and the Provost Marshal for leading everything in this direction to keep things "in house" that didn't belong there.
 

Booter

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there is no satisfaction civi-side on these things either. That’ll be the next story. They are specialized investigations that more often than not are done by general investigators- RCMP or otherwise. The success rate is abysmal- that’s bad for both accused and for complainants and victims.
 

Good2Golf

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I think everyone should wind their neck in a bit. Nobody here has a hot clue except what was in a CBC article. And the CBC is garbage.
You’re sure assuming a lot with that broad brush of yours. Maybe some of us knew, or even flew with Christian, either in Canada or in AFG? I met him in Moose Jaw years after he had augmented 408 Sqn on Griffons in KAF. A very humble and nice fellow. Similar to other threads I’ve participated in, I’m not saying that SA allegations shouldn’t be investigated, nor that due consideration shouldn’t be given to a potential/alleged victim, just as innocence is (or should be) presumed for an accused. However, there were some serious issues with the investigation from the beginning, and as noted below, it wasn’t just because some generals or the Provost Marshall were trying to keep things in house that things went sideways.

The CAF problem with sex assault files was not the investigators... it was keeping those cases within the military justice system and not sending them downtown where they belong.

Disagree with you’re giving the investigators a bye with how they proceeded in this case. Agree with your second point about the desire of the CAF/CFPM to keep things in house.

If you want to shit on anything, shit on the CAF leadership and the Provost Marshal for leading everything in this direction to keep things "in house" that didn't belong there.

While true, again, it doesn’t explain what to the layperson appears a significant disregard for procedure, and to an number of current/former LEOs here, also seems to have been ‘off’…
 

QV

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You’re sure assuming a lot with that broad brush of yours. Maybe some of us knew, or even flew with Christian, either in Canada or in AFG? I met him in Moose Jaw years after he had augmented 408 Sqn on Griffons in KAF. A very humble and nice fellow. Similar to other threads I’ve participated in, I’m not saying that SA allegations shouldn’t be investigated, nor that due consideration must be given to a potential/alleged victim, just as innocence is (or should be) presumed for an accused. However, there were some serious issues with the investigation from the beginning, and as noted below, it wasn’t just because some generals or the Provost Marshall were trying to keep things in house that things went sideways.



Disagree with you’re giving the investigators a bye with how they proceeded in this case. Agree with your second point about the desire of the CAF/CFPM to keep things in house.



While true, again, it doesn’t explain what to the layperson appears a significant disregard for procedure, and to an number of current/former LEOs here, also seems to have been ‘off’…
Sure GTG, assuming the CBC article is exactly right.

Christian is a victim of the environment the institution has created in handling cases like this. This is what I mean by that:

#believeallwomen
The CAF is an institution rife with "sexual misconduct" (which now also means bad jokes and failed personal relationships)
The "he's not been exonerated" mantra when cases are dropped or fail to meet the standard of conviction

I'm not saying investigative mistakes didn't happen. It's clear mistakes happen too often in most organizations, like the RCMP as well as the MP.

Sometimes an OldSolduer says it best about witch hunts. I can tell you it's not the coal face that perpetuates the witch hunts.
 

Good2Golf

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QV, rare is a case where there is but one link in the chain. I agree with you, if I understand what you’re saying, that there were a number of factors that contributed to a series of unfortunate events, the most grave being Christian taking his own life. I don’t think the investigation issues were the only factor…but I am also quite mindful of the challenges that supervisors/CoC have where issues of mental health and ideation of self-harm come into play, and it is more than unfortunate that a number of those involved weren’t able to change the course Christian’s ultimate actions.

I think that this entire event needs to be reviewed for a number of reasons, including impact on the alleged victim, as much as possible to the allegations against Christian, the conduct of the investigation to the point with Christian took his life, and how the investigation unfolded after his death, and of the greater challenges that this and other cases have brought to light with what earlier had been espoused by many as a panacea to systemic CAF-internal issues addressing SA/SM/HISB.

Regards
G2G
 

Lumber

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QV, rare is a case where there is but one link in the chain. I agree with you, if I understand what you’re saying, that there were a number of factors that contributed to a series of unfortunate events, the most grave being Christian taking his own life. I don’t think the investigation issues were the only factor…but I am also quite mindful of the challenges that supervisors/CoC have where issues of mental health and ideation of self-harm come into play, and it is more than unfortunate that a number of those involved weren’t able to change the course Christian’s ultimate actions.

I think that this entire event needs to be reviewed for a number of reasons, including impact on the alleged victim, as much as possible to the allegations against Christian, the conduct of the investigation to the point with Christian took his life, and how the investigation unfolded after his death, and of the greater challenges that this and other cases have brought to light with what earlier had been espoused by many as a panacea to systemic CAF-internal issues addressing SA/SM/HISB.

Regards
G2G
Maybe people wanted to reach out and "see how he was doing", but we're afraid that they'd get the same treatment as Rouleau and Bains.
 
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