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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Humphrey Bogart

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Not only drive a man to suicide, but then double down on their assholery? I may have mentioned this before, but I'm so glad to be retired.
It's too bad the Major didn't have someone in his court that could have pointed him in the right direction. If these text messages were a smoking gun, a good criminal defence lawyer could have worked some magic.
 

KevinB

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I'm going to say it again:

If you ever have the misfortune of being accused of something, THE POLICE ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND, Don't talk to them, don't try to "Explain your side of the story".

The Police don't care about your side of the story, it's not "Anything you say can and will be used FOR YOU". It's "Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU"

Be polite and courteous and politely decline to answer any of their questions and don't cooperate one bit.

In their mind, you're already a criminal scumbag, so screw them. Don't help them at all 😉.
Any LE friend will tell you the same thing - STFU and Lawyer up.
 

kev994

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brihard

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I'm going to say it again:

If you ever have the misfortune of being accused of something, THE POLICE ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND, Don't talk to them, don't try to "Explain your side of the story".

The Police don't care about your side of the story, it's not "Anything you say can and will be used FOR YOU". It's "Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU"

Be polite and courteous and politely decline to answer any of their questions and don't cooperate one bit.

In their mind, you're already a criminal scumbag, so screw them. Don't help them at all 😉.
Often sound. Not always. I - and most of us - have at some point or another obtained a statement from a suspect, looked into their side of things, corroborated it, and not laid charges as a result. A lot of criminal allegations are bullshit, but if we only have the complainant’s side, that may be difficult to discern. Sure, it’ll come out in trial, but that’s 16 months and a lot of money later.

If you every find yourself suspected or accused of something, get good criminal defence counsel ASAP, and consider whether or not it would be wise to have counsel assist you in drafting a written statement, or getting questions from the investigator in writing and responding in writing. We cannot ignore a statement that comes in, and it becomes part of everything we have to consider. Also, if we seek warrants or other judicial authorizations, we absolutely MUST disclose anything exculpatory to the judge or justice considering the warrant application. Most simply, we don’t want to look like idiots or lose in court, and neither does crown. Most of us will close a file if evidence comes to light that does not support a prosecution.

In any case, statement or no, don’t make ANY decision about your participation (or not) in a criminal investigation without engaging a lawyer. And don’t call the guy who needs to advertise on the back of a bus or a roadside billboard.

Anyway, in the case at hand, the accused literally offered a statement and the police didn’t take it. That’s fucking junk. It’s inept investigation, and it’s brutally unfair to the person facing the allegation. But it was the MPs, so…
 

Jarnhamar

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I got called in to speak with CFNIS not too long ago regarding something. They interviewed me and when the interview was done the nicer of the two made a point of telling me he's leaving his phone behind then walked me outside so we could speak off the record in a more private setting with no one else around. In case there's anything I wanted to say to just him. I thought it was very thoughtful of him
 

brihard

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I got called in to speak with CFNIS not too long ago regarding something. They interviewed me and when the interview was done the nicer of the two made a point of telling me he's leaving his phone behind then walked me outside so we could speak off the record in a more private setting with no one else around. In case there's anything I wanted to say to just him. I thought it was very thoughtful of him
If you’re suspected/accused in something this is obviously bullshit. If you’re simply a witness with no jeopardy, often as not we're still trying to figure out WTF is going on, and it can be useful to simply hear from someone what they think and why. But, still, don’t say anything you wouldn’t be willing to see on paper with your name next to it unless you’ve been explicitly given privilege as a confidential informant.
 

QV

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I’m no fan of the policies and orders that direct the MP and NIS, and I also know the CBC often prints a bunch of bullshit. I do know for certain that MPs are required to make attempts to interview all subjects. Subjects occasionally lawyer up.
 

daftandbarmy

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I got called in to speak with CFNIS not too long ago regarding something. They interviewed me and when the interview was done the nicer of the two made a point of telling me he's leaving his phone behind then walked me outside so we could speak off the record in a more private setting with no one else around. In case there's anything I wanted to say to just him. I thought it was very thoughtful of him

Did he say something like 'this is off the record', because then you know for sure that it's not off the record ;)
 

lenaitch

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I'm going to say it again:

If you ever have the misfortune of being accused of something, THE POLICE ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND, Don't talk to them, don't try to "Explain your side of the story".

The Police don't care about your side of the story, it's not "Anything you say can and will be used FOR YOU". It's "Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU"

Be polite and courteous and politely decline to answer any of their questions and don't cooperate one bit.

In their mind, you're already a criminal scumbag, so screw them. Don't help them at all 😉.
A little over the top in the "criminal scumbag" characterization but generally decent advice.

I've been out for several years and no longer have my cards but clearly recall that my Force's 'standard caution' used the words "may be used as evidence". No mention of the 'against you' part; although I am aware some forces did use that version.

Honest question: What type of investigative training does the MP/CFNIS get? Do they get to avail themselves of senior and specialized courses at CPC, their own school, FBI National Academy, etc..
 

Jarnhamar

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If you’re suspected/accused in something this is obviously bullshit. If you’re simply a witness with no jeopardy, often as not we're still trying to figure out WTF is going on, and it can be useful to simply hear from someone what they think and why. But, still, don’t say anything you wouldn’t be willing to see on paper with your name next to it unless you’ve been explicitly given privilege as a confidential informant.
If there's one thing Liberal and Conservative MPs pissing while on zoom calls taught it it's that you're always on the record ;)

Did he say something like 'this is off the record', because then you know for sure that it's not off the record ;)
Oh ya. The "I'll leave my phone behind" was pretty smooth but I have high saving throws.
 

Kat Stevens

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A little over the top in the "criminal scumbag" characterization but generally decent advice.

I've been out for several years and no longer have my cards but clearly recall that my Force's 'standard caution' used the words "may be used as evidence". No mention of the 'against you' part; although I am aware some forces did use that version.

Honest question: What type of investigative training does the MP/CFNIS get? Do they get to avail themselves of senior and specialized courses at CPC, their own school, FBI National Academy, etc..
They spend a weekend at a Holiday Inn Express.
 

lenaitch

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Keystone Kops for the most part. Send them back to traffic duties
And that may be part of the problem. I only observe them from the outside looking in, but it seems the peacetime role of the MPs on base are a combination of traffic enforcement and security guard. I would imagine even, for example, domestic disputes in RHUs/shacks are handled completely differently than they would be outside the fence. This is probably overly simplistic, but perhaps if they were organized more along the lines of a civilian police service, with members assigned to 'detective' duties, scenes of crime, etc. even on a rotation basis, skills would be developed and they wouldn't have had to create an essentially separate CFNIS. Uniformed 'patrol' members still take the first call, run the radar and rattle door knobs. That's what we did. Obviously, easier on larger basis.

I realize their are intrinsic issues of chain of command that need to be better sorted out. Civilian law enforcement don't typically interact with people who are part of the same employer.
 

QV

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Honest question: What type of investigative training does the MP/CFNIS get? Do they get to avail themselves of senior and specialized courses at CPC, their own school, FBI National Academy, etc..

Not certain about the FBI academy, but yes to all the rest. There are hundreds of former MP with civilian agencies, the leading consensus seems to be was they got more advanced training earlier with the MP that has benefited them greatly but toxic leadership and ridiculous policies are the main drivers for leaving.

This may be difficult for most to understand, but the reason the MP are such a shit show is because of the orders and policies the CAF and senior MP leadership forces upon them. The people in the MP are a cross section of good, bad, ugly at the same ratios as any other group of people.
 

Brad Sallows

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So apparently investigators don't actively investigate with a view to exoneration, much?
 

Jarnhamar

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Without a hint of exaggeration the most toxic leadership email I've ever seen in the CAF was from a Military Police RSM to their people. It would be a very strong contender for in person speeches too. Top 2 or 3.

"Wouldn't piss on this guy if he was on fire" comes to mind.
 
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