"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

[markppcli]

No need for a position like that, the WO/PO1 rank cover that responsibility.

Take at look at the NATO equivalencies charts for ORs, if you're not familiar with them it might help to clarify what Canada does compared to the UK, USA, and others.

We are a little unique in terms of essentially having a “free” rank in the Canadian Cpl. In Latvia it was difficult to explain but everyone just goes by their OR code anyways.


A thought on the “benefit” of a punishment being more severe because you skip MCpl if demoted. If the chief advantage of something is you punitive power because of it, I’d argue it holds no value at all.

 

[FJAG]

Would the way to "fix" the MCPL rank being an appointment, to do a Hellyer and promote them all to the substantive rank of SGT (with 3 chevrons), and then create a new rank for the actual SGTs with the maple leaf above 3 hooks (Staff SGT? Or maybe Americanize the ranks even more by making them Master SGT)? Obviously not being completely serious but that might be more along the lines DND might do (if they did anything at all, which isn't likely).

Naw. That would have been a hell of an unnecessary cascade.

I was in the artillery where the primary entry level job for a sergeant is gun detachment commander. Previously the detachment second in command was a bombardier and the rest of the detachment were gunners. After the change over, the sergeant was still the detachment commander and the second in command now a master bombardier while the rest of the detachment were gunners or bombardiers depending on their time in the Army.

We actually did have Staff Sergeant back then and I remember that my troop sergeant major back in 1970/71 was one. I'm not to sure exactly when that rank converted to warrant officer but it was around that time. It was essentially just a name change although there might have been a small pay issue with it.

 

[torg003]

Interesting historical note; in the first couple of years of WWII, the Brits had the rank of WO 3rd Class which had the rank insignia of a single crown on the lower sleeve. WO 3's served as platoon SMs although they still had S SGTs in the unit. The Brits eventually realized the rank was redundant and deleted it (WO 3's were promoted to LT and given command of a platoon). It's strange/interesting that Hellyer chose to use this failed WW II era rank in the unified CAF. But, to be fair, he did delete the rank of S SGT, so I guess the single crown WO rank fills that roll. I also think the change to bring in a WO rank to replace S SGT might have been to encourage S SGTs and SGTs to stay in the military during the unification process.
Just my opinion of course.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Interesting historical note; in the first couple of years of WWII, the Brits had the rank of WO 3rd Class which had the rank insignia of a single crown on the lower sleeve. WO 3's served as platoon SMs although they still had S SGTs in the unit. The Brits eventually realized the rank was redundant and deleted it (WO 3's were promoted to LT and given command of a platoon). It's strange/interesting that Hellyer chose to use this failed WW II era rank in the unified CAF. But, to be fair, he did delete the rank of S SGT, so I guess the single crown WO rank fills that roll.

I think you are giving Hellyer a lot more credit than he deserves.

 

[torg003]

You're probably right.

 

[Blackadder1916]

We sent forecasters to work with the Germans in Mali, tit was what opened the doors to more work with NATO. The Germans actually were willing to give our WO/Sgt/MCpl forecasters the "NATO" qual to forecast when Canada itself at the time wouldn't. We now even have a position in Germany at the MN MSG, and multinational met forecast centre.

In Canada ECCC is deeply rooted in the Canadian Forces Weather and Oceanographic service, and they have an interest in keeping Met Techs out of forecasting jobs. The Germans didn't have the same job security concerns and were more than happy to recognize our forecaster's skills.

I met and briefly chatted with a CF meteorology officer once. It was over thirty years ago in Lahr. I had just been posted in and was living in while looking for a place and the meteorologist (a captain) was on his last couple of days in Germany before returning to Canada. We chatted during dinner one evening (there weren't a lot of officers who lived in, even temporarily). He had been filling the one and only position for a (commissioned) meteorologist in the CF. The position was filled by Environment Canada meteorologists who volunteered to serve as a Class C Reservist in Germany for three years. If I remember our chat correctly, the main reason for the position was to have someone with "formal credentials" when dealing with senior weather types at higher headquarters or the German Weather Service.

 

[Furniture]

I met and briefly chatted with a CF meteorology officer once. It was over thirty years ago in Lahr. I had just been posted in and was living in while looking for a place and the meteorologist (a captain) was on his last couple of days in Germany before returning to Canada. We chatted during dinner one evening (there weren't a lot of officers who lived in, even temporarily). He had been filling the one and only position for a (commissioned) meteorologist in the CF. The position was filled by Environment Canada meteorologists who volunteered to serve as a Class C Reservist in Germany for three years. If I remember our chat correctly, the main reason for the position was to have someone with "formal credentials" when dealing with senior weather types at higher headquarters or the German Weather Service.

That system ended in the 90s, I believe shortly after bases over there were closed. Though some of the older meteorologists used to still think they were officers when I joined, and didn't adjust well to the reality that they had no authority over Met Techs.

The Danes use a system like the one we had, when deployed their civilian meteorologists become Captains for the duration of the deployment.

Back to the rank thing in general, I think we need to be mindful of how our ranks align with allies/partners, as militaries are very hierarchical, and the embroidery on your slip-on does matter until you become a known quantity.

 

[Blackadder1916]

That system ended in the 90s, I believe shortly after bases over there were closed. . . .

I know. I closed both bases . . . well not the entire bases personally, just the medical units.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Cpl/ MCpl should have the same incentives as a Captain. Not everyone is a leader. Not everyone wants to be a leader. We need Cpls/MCpls that know their job, inside out and backwards, can act independently and be effective in minor leadership roles. They are extremely valuable in this capacity for things like a SSM's running replen, range and ammo parties, small party tasks, etc. I see no reason why there can't be ten incentives for Cpl/MCpl.

That on its own would only give them smaller raises; their high and low pay would not change.

If you raise their pay, then you be looking at a Pay review for all Sgt and WOs/POs pay as well. I don’t think the govt / TB would be overly excited about that.

 

[SupersonicMax]

That on its own would only give them smaller raises; their high and low pay would not change.

If you raise their pay, then you be looking at a Pay review for all Sgt and WOs/POs pay as well. I don’t think the govt / TB would be overly excited about that.

That happened for SAR techs and is about to happen for air techs as well (and more to come)

 

[Halifax Tar]

That happened for SAR techs and is about to happen for air techs as well (and more to come)

Some one told me recently that a Sgt SAR Tech now has the potential to make more than the CAF CWO.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Some one told me recently that a Sgt SAR Tech now has the potential to make more than the CAF CWO.

Pay scale for Sgt/WO/MWO/CWO SAR Tech below. Up to 14 PI.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Pay scale for Sgt/WO/MWO/CWO SAR Tech below. Up to 14 PI.

View attachment 70173

Good lord!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Good lord!

Anyone who is willing to jump out of a Herc into an Arctic Blizzard to rescue somebody can have the money…

 

[Halifax Tar]

Anyone who is willing to jump out of a Herc into an Arctic Blizzard to rescue somebody can have the money…

Most NCMs in combat don't/didnt make that much, and if they did it came from years of FSP build up.

You'll get no argument from me that those in the jumping out of planes positions should make that, but I can't justify that rate of pay for those who aren't. I don't know how their trade is established and their position allotments. But I have to imagine the entire trade up to CWO isn't jumping into blizzards anymore.

@SeaKingTacco you're closer to that community than I am so I stand by to be educated.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Most NCMs in combat don't/didnt make that much, and if they did it came from years of FSP build up.

You'll get no argument from me that those in the jumping out of planes positions should make that, but I can't justify that rate of pay for those who aren't. I don't know how their trade is established and their position allotments. But I have to imagine they entire trade upto CWO isn't jumping into blizzards anymore.

@SeaKingTacco you're closer to that community than I am so I stand by to be educated.

That’s a means to retain experience and encourage progression within the trade. When people were posted out of a flying unit, they would have a substantial pay cut which led to many CTing to the reserves.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That’s a means to retain experience and encourage progression within the trade. When people were posted out of a flying unit, they would have a substantial pay cut which led to many CTing to the reserves.

Man, you RCAF guys have the best union.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Man, you RCAF guys have the best union.

That pay scale is identical to that of SOF Operators. There is a CAF-Wide push to change how compensation is structured.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That happened for SAR techs and is about to happen for air techs as well (and more to come)

Yup. I don’t see the same pay levels for a cbt arms Cpl/MCpl being adopted however. The skill sets aren’t remotely comparable.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Yup. I don’t see the same pay levels for a cbt arms Cpl/MCpl being adopted however. The skill sets aren’t remotely comparable.

Pay levels no, but I could see a restructure that recognize skills, regardless of rank while still encouraging career progression.