PCT ORCA class vessels

[Grimey]

The hope is that the "...plans for other ways to 'motivate' RegF stokers" will not be perceived as negative, in fact quite the opposite. OGBD, you are correct in that the lone Mar Eng or MESO (MS Eng is the Officer trade name) has an awful lot of responsibility resting on his or her shoulders. And CS, I agree, the Res were never mandated to man these...but I dare say, niether were the RegF. I would LOVE to see the SOR for this vessel to find out where the crews were intended to come from. I don't think as much planning went into these vessels as usually does for a major procurement..unless somone who was part of the project is on here and may care to chime in?? I shudder to think how these things would possibly be manned if we did not have 5 Halifax class out of routine and in various degrees of being minimally manned right now for HCM FELEX.

But alas, we WILL man them and we WILL make things happen like we always do. I just hope we don't have some sort of major breakdown or worse to make some realize that we are at the edge of asking people to accomplish too much with limited experience, training and therefore confidence.

Pat

Pat,

We had a CPO2 on this coast who went blue in the face trying to deal with the ORCA manning situation.  I talked with him when i was Snr DI in Ottawa and, as you suspect, manning levels and an establishment change wasn't given the remotest consideration.  This is the main reason that the CPO2 now calls himself Mr.  His line of reasoning was that a Bay class minesweeper of 2400 combined SHP had a Mar Eng Dept of 12.  The ORCA with half again as much power has a killick Cert 2 playing MSEO/ChEng/CHT with, if he's lucky, an AMOC roundsman.  Not the greatest situation to be in when the fit hits the shan.

 

[Stoker]

Pat,

We had a CPO2 on this coast who went blue in the face trying to deal with the ORCA manning situation.  I talked with him when i was Snr DI in Ottawa and, as you suspect, manning levels and an establishment change wasn't given the remotest consideration.  This is the main reason that the CPO2 now calls himself Mr.  His line of reasoning was that a Bay class minesweeper of 2400 combined SHP had a Mar Eng Dept of 12.  The ORCA with half again as much power has a killick Cert 2 playing MSEO/ChEng/CHT with, if he's lucky, an AMOC roundsman.  Not the greatest situation to be in when the fit hits the shan.

That's not a fair analogy as the Bay class was a more labor intensive ship with few if any automated systems. The ORCA is a automated ship with redundant systems with a return home capability that  doesn't go as far afield as the Bay Class ever did and all PM2 and PM3 maintenance and correctives are handled by ISSC. If something breaks they go to the nearest port and support from PCT comes to the ship to fix it.
As for the MSEO/ChEng/CHT comments, its true its still a lot of responsibility to put on a LS.

 

[Good2Golf]

If you guys don't mind a CADPAT-wearing aviator (who secretly yearns for a Nordhavn 47 for my retirement gift) asking some questions on the subject, it seems to me that automation aside, the ORCA is a significantly more complex vessel that would to my mind, require some kind of more formalized mechanical/systems engineering oversight (is that what you guys mean by an ERA?) compared to the YAGs. 

I know "size isn't everything", but an ORCA is about three times the displacement as a YAG, isn't it?  And a couple of Cat 3516s (interestingly, non-electonic, non-ACERT I noticed) is notably more "involved" than the twin Jimmy 6-71s of the YAG, which are about the most bullet-proof, simple marine engine out there.  Nothing against the 15 year-old Sea Cadet on engineering watch, but if one of the mains had an issue, what could the cadet do other than wake up the ERA?  What ratings does the cadet's ticket actually include?

Years (a lot) ago, I had the pleasure (?) of rolling around in a YAG (including half a day out at the infamous W601 to help feed aquatic life) and  the YAG struck me as a decently-sized but very simple vessel.  I haven't been on an ORCA up close, but it looks a lot more involved to operate than the YAGs.

Re: PYs/dedicated pers.  I too am not surprised that there would be little written in to either the ORCA's SOR, or more likely its accompanying CONOP or Statement of Operating Intent (SOI), but folks who have done a round or two in NDHQ will know that money is actually secondary in relation to the most valuable commodity in the CF, the PY.  I would think exactly as Pat noted, that it would be "operated as the previous class it replaces" type of thing.

Regards
G2G

p.s.  Grimey noted that an ORCA has "half again" the power over the BAY-Class sweepers (2,400 SHP) - does that mean the 3516s are derated to 1,800SHP?

 

[Stoker]

If you guys don't mind a CADPAT-wearing aviator (who secretly yearns for a Nordhavn 47 for my retirement gift) asking some questions on the subject, it seems to me that automation aside, the ORCA is a significantly more complex vessel that would to my mind, require some kind of more formalized mechanical/systems engineering oversight (is that what you guys mean by an ERA?) compared to the YAGs. 

I know "size isn't everything", but an ORCA is about three times the displacement as a YAG, isn't it?  And a couple of Cat 3516s (interestingly, non-electonic, non-ACERT I noticed) is notably more "involved" than the twin Jimmy 6-71s of the YAG, which are about the most bullet-proof, simple marine engine out there.  Nothing against the 15 year-old Sea Cadet on engineering watch, but if one of the mains had an issue, what could the cadet do other than wake up the ERA?  What ratings does the cadet's ticket actually include?

Years (a lot) ago, I had the pleasure (?) of rolling around in a YAG (including half a day out at the infamous W601 to help feed aquatic life) and  the YAG struck me as a decently-sized but very simple vessel.  I haven't been on an ORCA up close, but it looks a lot more involved to operate than the YAGs.

Re: PYs/dedicated pers.  I too am not surprised that there would be little written in to either the ORCA's SOR, or more likely its accompanying CONOP or Statement of Operating Intent (SOI), but folks who have done a round or two in NDHQ will know that money is actually secondary in relation to the most valuable commodity in the CF, the PY.  I would think exactly as Pat noted, that it would be "operated as the previous class it replaces" type of thing.

Regards
G2G

p.s.  Grimey noted that an ORCA has "half again" the power over the BAY-Class sweepers (2,400 SHP) - does that mean the 3516s are derated to 1,800SHP?

Your right, there really isn't any comparison between the two as both boats are worlds apart. The YAG's were good as they were simple to operate and maintain but had limitations such as no night steaming so they would anchor every night or come into a small port like Friday Harbor. The ORCA's were built so it was very similar in the way the bridge operated to the much larger CPF's and other class of ships.
I would assume that a 15 year old Cadet is trained enough to take appropriate action if there is an Engineering emergency or Engineering difficulty but I wonder if that Kid is actually trained in Naval firefighting, damage control techniques.

 

[chrisf]

That's interesting... as somone who spends a lot of time cursing and swearing at a 3508 civi side (it's baby brother, the 3506, our emergency gen, is pretty well behaved, but still irritating to work on), it makes me wonder... did the navy print their own manuals for the engines, or did they go with the awful awful awful cat manuals?

 

[Good2Golf]

That's interesting... as somone who spends a lot of time cursing and swearing at a 3508 civi side (it's baby brother, the 3506, our emergency gen, is pretty well behaved, but still irritating to work on), it makes me wonder... did the navy print their own manuals for the engines, or did they go with the awful awful awful cat manuals?

Sig Op, I love the sound of a kitty cat, but yes, their manuals are horrible.  :nod:

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Forgive another aviator from weighing in, but, my understanding is that we (military personnel) do not fix or maintain the systems on the ORCA- it is all done by contractor.

Does that not impact how many PYs are required?

 

[Stoker]

Forgive another aviator from weighing in, but, my understanding is that we (military personnel) do not fix or maintain the systems on the ORCA- it is all done by contractor.

Does that not impact how many PYs are required?

That's correct PM1 routines are done by the unit and the rest are covered by contractor.

 

[gwp]

I would assume that a 15 year old Cadet is trained enough to take appropriate action if there is an Engineering emergency or Engineering difficulty but I wonder if that Kid is actually trained in Naval firefighting, damage control techniques.

The course consisted of seven weeks of challenging theoretical and practical learning, mechanical sketching, shipboard firefighting and damage control, engineering maintenance skills and emergency procedures. The final week was spent preparing for, and appearing in front of a board of the Canadian Naval Marine Engineers to test their knowledge.

It is correct that a cadet is not the lead hand and is never deployed without a qualified adult as was the case in the YAG.  The course of instruction is the longest summer program offered in the cadet organization.

The Navy has had a shortage in the trade for a while. 

 

[Good2Golf]

The course consisted of seven weeks of challenging theoretical and practical learning, mechanical sketching, shipboard firefighting and damage control, engineering maintenance skills and emergency procedures. The final week was spent preparing for, and appearing in front of a board of the Canadian Naval Marine Engineers to test their knowledge.

gwp, thanks for that.  Good to know there is a comprehensive curriculum to the course...nothing wrong with 15-year olds doing stuff...many kids who grew up on farms were likely already a few years experienced into helping their dad weld up and repair major machinery.    Good on the Sea Cadets for have such a program.

Regards
G2G