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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

Underway

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Yes, let's add another place where the richer provinces send transfer payments too, or there are historical issues between a colonial minority and an oppressed majority. I think we have enough dumpster fires to put out in Canada first.
 

Halifax Tar

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Yes, let's add another place where the richer provinces send transfer payments too, or there are historical issues between a colonial minority and an oppressed majority. I think we have enough dumpster fires to put out in Canada first.

Thank you for being my moral compass. hahaha :)
 

dapaterson

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Bermuda as an eleventh province would be popular with Canadian banks trying to compete with London banks and their convenient anti-transparency offshoots in the Channel islands.
 

Swampbuggy

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Yes, let's add another place where the richer provinces send transfer payments too, or there are historical issues between a colonial minority and an oppressed majority. I think we have enough dumpster fires to put out in Canada first.
Yes, but...the amount of money people spend to go to Cuba, Florida, Mexico, Jamaica etc would be spent in "Canada" were the Turks or Bermuda welcomed into the fold. Be nice to go somewhere dandy that requires no passport or currency exchange.
 

suffolkowner

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If memory serves the Turks and Caicos twice offered themselves to Canada once under Trudeau and again under Mulroney. I believe it was $1B
 

Underway

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Yes, but...the amount of money people spend to go to Cuba, Florida, Mexico, Jamaica etc would be spent in "Canada" were the Turks or Bermuda welcomed into the fold. Be nice to go somewhere dandy that requires no passport or currency exchange.
I get it. It would be amazing. Nova Scotia even volunteered to allow T&C to join it as part of the province so it neatly sidestepped the potential constitutional wrangling.

If memory serves the Turks and Caicos twice offered themselves to Canada once under Trudeau and again under Mulroney. I believe it was $1B
I don't know if it was so much as offered but the idea was explored. The UK was looking to get rid of them as a protectorate as well due to the massive amount of corruption their local government was involved in.

Unless Canada sees the Carib and environs as a strategic location that we want to get involved in (I don't think we do), then it's probably not in our best interest. Perhaps there is a business case to be made. But I don't see a geopolitical one to be made.
 

Spencer100

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I get it. It would be amazing. Nova Scotia even volunteered to allow T&C to join it as part of the province so it neatly sidestepped the potential constitutional wrangling.


I don't know if it was so much as offered but the idea was explored. The UK was looking to get rid of them as a protectorate as well due to the massive amount of corruption their local government was involved in.

Unless Canada sees the Carib and environs as a strategic location that we want to get involved in (I don't think we do), then it's probably not in our best interest. Perhaps there is a business case to be made. But I don't see a geopolitical one to be made.
I think more of a business case. Canadian dollars in Canada thing. But maybe not people would still go to cheaper Mexician or other places.
 

Spencer100

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But back to Kingston replacement requirements. The biggest requirement is that it can not look like a frigate. So small gun, no hanger and no missiles. I believe this is the first requirement because the question will be asked if you have these grey ships with guns why do you need this very expensive CSC ships? I feel that is the main reason AOPS are lighty armed. I know the reason is that con ops don't require it. And I agree with that. But if you are an Admiral in the RCN your main goal is to get and retain the combat fleet. There has been the ideas floated put some missiles and bigger guns on the AOPS and buy less CSC. Same thing would happen with Kingston replacement.
 

Dana381

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Yes, but...the amount of money people spend to go to Cuba, Florida, Mexico, Jamaica etc would be spent in "Canada" were the Turks or Bermuda welcomed into the fold. Be nice to go somewhere dandy that requires no passport or currency exchange.

No Canadians would still flock to Cuba, an all inclusive week in Cuba is cheaper than the airfare between most Canadian cities. If Turks became a Canadian province then Canadian taxes would apply and it would be too expensive to travel too
 

Dale Denton

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I think for the Kingstons, they'll be around for a little longer, so we have some time to debate their warship capabilities and focus on much more pressing projects. This however isn't a great idea since the Halifaxs will be around for quite some time and will be needed for 'higher-end' jobs. The Halifaxs need to be supplemented somehow with a 'light frigate' or OPV in the meantime, something cheap, mature, simple, and easy to maintain. I'd imagine something 'safe' to build in Canada, like River Class Batch 2 that keep getting mentioned. Solid RN international deployments, uparming easy, multirole. I'm partial to the great paintjobs too. :cool:

My idea:

Balance these interim measures to cover until the CSCs come online fast enough to avoid inflation.
  • Contract a Canadian yard to build 6-10 River Batch 2s, less stress on the Kingstons and Halifaxs (for their lower-end jobs).
  • Throw on some next-gen containerized towed-away sonars that we've seen pictured on the Kingstons and DeWolfs.
  • There's an article in NavyLookout about their uparming and it appears to be quite an easy fix in wartime or from baseline. Pick what you want.
  • Boom, you have a cheap ASW warship the can defend Canada while the Halifax Class can do the higher end jobs.
  • Build 2 more and rotate them through a leased CFB in the Caribbean (Jamaica/T&C) for Op Projection and Caribb expansions.
  • To retain experienced crew, 1 tour in the arctic=1 tour in the Caribb. Build a CAF exclusive resort for families to stay.

Subs.
  • Commit to buying 6 new subs, with a plan to be presented in a year or 2 on the how to operate them in the Arctic and options.
  • Keep the sub community alive, as they wind down in years by sending crew to NATO/RAN sub schools. Supplement 5YE SSN crew shortages with RCN crews. We'll buy their tech either way. They won't fight Billions of CAD into their SSN programs, AUKUS countries seem to have gotten along well internally.

Global Reach
  • 2 civilian RoRo, both coasts, ice-strengthened.
  • Fleet of CCG icebreaker/commercial arctic ferry ships for a new Crown Corp to lower transport costs/CoL in the North. Put that "Arctic icebreaker centre of excellence" to work and design a icebreaker and ferry ship.
  • at least 2 more Protecteurs or 4 more Multi-Role support ships.
  • 1 Mistral or Karel Doorman.

Lots of capability without needing a CSC competitor or another $20 Billion into the Navy.
 

Swampbuggy

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No Canadians would still flock to Cuba, an all inclusive week in Cuba is cheaper than the airfare between most Canadian cities. If Turks became a Canadian province then Canadian taxes would apply and it would be too expensive to travel too
Maybe, but maybe not. Think of the snowbirds that flock down to Florida. Most of them are paying extra for health insurance in addition to the exchange etc. Life's not a hell of a lot cheaper in Florida then it is here, yet many head down there anyway. The Sun sells and the snowbirds are a fairly big demographic.
 

Spencer100

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I think for the Kingstons, they'll be around for a little longer, so we have some time to debate their warship capabilities and focus on much more pressing projects. This however isn't a great idea since the Halifaxs will be around for quite some time and will be needed for 'higher-end' jobs. The Halifaxs need to be supplemented somehow with a 'light frigate' or OPV in the meantime, something cheap, mature, simple, and easy to maintain. I'd imagine something 'safe' to build in Canada, like River Class Batch 2 that keep getting mentioned. Solid RN international deployments, uparming easy, multirole. I'm partial to the great paintjobs too. :cool:

My idea:

Balance these interim measures to cover until the CSCs come online fast enough to avoid inflation.
  • Contract a Canadian yard to build 6-10 River Batch 2s, less stress on the Kingstons and Halifaxs (for their lower-end jobs).
  • Throw on some next-gen containerized towed-away sonars that we've seen pictured on the Kingstons and DeWolfs.
  • There's an article in NavyLookout about their uparming and it appears to be quite an easy fix in wartime or from baseline. Pick what you want.
  • Boom, you have a cheap ASW warship the can defend Canada while the Halifax Class can do the higher end jobs.
  • Build 2 more and rotate them through a leased CFB in the Caribbean (Jamaica/T&C) for Op Projection and Caribb expansions.
  • To retain experienced crew, 1 tour in the arctic=1 tour in the Caribb. Build a CAF exclusive resort for families to stay.

Subs.
  • Commit to buying 6 new subs, with a plan to be presented in a year or 2 on the how to operate them in the Arctic and options.
  • Keep the sub community alive, as they wind down in years by sending crew to NATO/RAN sub schools. Supplement 5YE SSN crew shortages with RCN crews. We'll buy their tech either way. They won't fight Billions of CAD into their SSN programs, AUKUS countries seem to have gotten along well internally.

Global Reach
  • 2 civilian RoRo, both coasts, ice-strengthened.
  • Fleet of CCG icebreaker/commercial arctic ferry ships for a new Crown Corp to lower transport costs/CoL in the North. Put that "Arctic icebreaker centre of excellence" to work and design a icebreaker and ferry ship.
  • at least 2 more Protecteurs or 4 more Multi-Role support ships.
  • 1 Mistral or Karel Doorman.

Lots of capability without needing a CSC competitor or another $20 Billion into the Navy.
Unarmed Rivers sooner gets you less CSC's. It's grey and has gun. Prefect some will say. No big expensive scary warships for you.
 

Spencer100

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Maybe, but maybe not. Think of the snowbirds that flock down to Florida. Most of them are paying extra for health insurance in addition to the exchange etc. Life's not a hell of a lot cheaper in Florida then it is here, yet many head down there anyway. The Sun sells and the snowbirds are a fairly big demographic.
Florida freedom sells

Just got back this weekend. One million have moved there to escape other states. Have many friends thinking of moving their businesses.
 

Swampbuggy

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Florida freedom sells

Just got back this weekend. One million have moved there to escape other states. Have many friends thinking of moving their businesses.
Sure, it's the best shot most have right now. But, my point is that the elderly having to pay health insurance to stay in Florida may find it appealing to chase the sun in Canada and skip that bill. Anyways, it's largely a moot point. If Canada added a Caribbean or tropical island to our territory, it would probably instantly depopulate Manitoba, sooo... unlikely to happen.
 

Maxman1

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the elderly having to pay health insurance to stay in Florida

Unless they're gaming the system and live in Canada enough of the year to still have access to Canadian health care...

Anyway, a station in Bermuda and/or Turks & Caicos wouldn't have that issue, though there might be plenty of members lining up to be posted there.

Also, if the government wants to increase our presence in the arctic, we should open a few more stations similar to Alert, such as in Churchill, a deep water arctic seaport, Iqaluit, which is getting there and had a station at one point (CFS Frobisher Bay) and maybe Tuktoyaktuk, which was promised a deep water port by the Conservatives this past election.
 

Colin Parkinson

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How to make your ship building and repair toxic for Allied naval vessel and guarantee it will never happen again.

Canadian national security concerns delay court battle over New Zealand warship upgrades

A prolonged court battle over upgrades to a pair of New Zealand navy warships in Canada is now facing years of potential delays as the Attorney General of Canada reviews hundreds of thousands of documents in the case over national security concerns.

The New Zealand government inked a deal in 2014 with Lockheed Martin Canada to install new weapons and surveillance systems aboard Her Majesty's New Zealand ships Te Mana and Te Kaha. The two ships make up the entirety of the country's frigate fleet and the upgrades are intended to extend the life of the warships into the mid-2030s.

Lockheed subcontracted part of the work to Seaspan Shipyards in Victoria in 2018. But two years later, the shipyard filed a lawsuit against Lockheed in B.C. Supreme Court, alleging that problems with the company's designs had cost the shipyard more than $20 million in delays and workarounds on the first ship alone.


Lockheed responded with a counterclaim, alleging the delays were due to negligence, understaffing and mismanagement at the Victoria shipyard, and had set the company back tens of millions of dollars.

Both ships were due to return to New Zealand in 2020. The upgraded Te Kaha was returned in December 2020, nine months after its planned completion date, while the Te Mana remains in Victoria, more than eight years after the modernization contract was awarded.

200,000 PAGES, 'ONE HOUR PER PAGE'​

In a decision published Thursday, a B.C. Supreme Court judge ordered an amended case plan to allow for delays as the attorney general's office reviews hundreds of thousands of pages of court submissions for potential redactions of sensitive national security information.

"The process often takes a number of years," judge Sandra Wilkinson wrote in her decision. "The COVID-19 pandemic has made examination of the documents by the relevant AGC [Attorney General of Canada] staff and agency members difficult, since the documents cannot be electronically transmitted and review must take place in person."

The review falls under Sec. 38 of the Canada Evidence Act, which prevents the disclosure in court of confidential information related to national security and international relations without the consent of the attorney general.

Minister of Justice and Attorney General David Lametti's office has "informed the court that initial review of each document [will] take one hour per page," Wilkinson wrote. "And there are approximately 200,000 pages to examine."

The attorney general has already confirmed that "a number of documents" provided for an initial review "contain injurious information," the judge wrote.

The documents in question are central to the legal claims of both Lockheed and Seaspan Victoria Shipyards, and both parties have been authorized to communicate directly with the attorney general on the Sec. 38 review, according to the court.

Wilkinson also directed the companies to provide quarterly updates on the review process beginning at the end of June.
 

lenaitch

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Unless they're gaming the system and live in Canada enough of the year to still have access to Canadian health care...
[/QUOTE]

If Ontario is indicative of all the provinces, Canadian healthcare doesn't cover much of the cost of out-of-country medical bills, particularly US. Private insurers will do all in their power to medically evac you back; even with the cost of that, it is generally cheaper than hospital and medical costs in the US.
 

Underway

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How to make your ship building and repair toxic for Allied naval vessel and guarantee it will never happen again.

Canadian national security concerns delay court battle over New Zealand warship upgrades

A prolonged court battle over upgrades to a pair of New Zealand navy warships in Canada is now facing years of potential delays as the Attorney General of Canada reviews hundreds of thousands of documents in the case over national security concerns.

The New Zealand government inked a deal in 2014 with Lockheed Martin Canada to install new weapons and surveillance systems aboard Her Majesty's New Zealand ships Te Mana and Te Kaha. The two ships make up the entirety of the country's frigate fleet and the upgrades are intended to extend the life of the warships into the mid-2030s.

Lockheed subcontracted part of the work to Seaspan Shipyards in Victoria in 2018. But two years later, the shipyard filed a lawsuit against Lockheed in B.C. Supreme Court, alleging that problems with the company's designs had cost the shipyard more than $20 million in delays and workarounds on the first ship alone.


Lockheed responded with a counterclaim, alleging the delays were due to negligence, understaffing and mismanagement at the Victoria shipyard, and had set the company back tens of millions of dollars.

Both ships were due to return to New Zealand in 2020. The upgraded Te Kaha was returned in December 2020, nine months after its planned completion date, while the Te Mana remains in Victoria, more than eight years after the modernization contract was awarded.
Only 9 months delay... during COVID? That's basically on time. The second ship though... not the best.

The problem isn't with the ships or the work done, it's between the contractor and their sub. Who ends up paying for any delay etc...
I think that calling it toxic and will scare people away is a bit much. Chile's upgrade went on with few issues. This is a minor drama in the shipbuilding world.

The program did run over budget by about 30% ($148 million NZD) but that was based on the government's flawed cost estimates of the program (which they took responsibility for).
 
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