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New CA Tank Destroyer (From: Corps 86's Chimera tank destroyer)

The Weisel TOW with bunkerbuster is a good way to bring some AT/HE to the mix, but the vehicle itself is quite vulnerable. The Hetzer II if following closely to it's predecessor would have armour 60mm frontal and 20mm side and well angled, that would basically make it frontally immune to 14.5 and 23mm. May be difficult to defeat frontally for older RPG's. so for bunker busting I will take the Hetzer with 105mm. The TOW Wiesel can provide AT overwatch for the troops. Not sure what the armour is on the BV-210 but the base weight is listed at 5 tons, slightly more than the Wiesel for a much bigger vehicle, so I suspect at best 7.62X54 frontal protection.

All of the above for light /airborne forces where weight,size, fuel and ammo load are all critical elements. For regular forces I would take a Leopard II or perhaps a engineering assault version armed with a 165mm demolition gun, bulldozer blade, RWS and extra armour.  :nod:
 
Thucydides said:
I see I kicked over a can of worms (again).

So question: where in the modern Canadian Army would a vehicle like the Hetzer II belong?

Just so you don't think I have an oar in the water, I personally would support arming the BV-206 or successor with an ATGM or recoiless cannon as an alternative to a purpose built SP, but I certainly would not say "no" if it was on offer.

Why, the Panzer Grenadier Armoured Cavalry regiments, of course. They would be better than that cheesy, top heavy wheeled thing they dreamed up to go with the wheeled LAVs.
 
MCG said:
We just retired a tank destroyer because the capability was decided as not important enough.  LAV III TUA.

Yes a mistake that again proven this spring on Ex PR/MR, LAV's are no match for a troop of any tanks that manage to sweep behind the FEBA, and take out the CCP :-/

But on another note, the LAV TUA though needed to augment the AT capabilities of a Inf Bn, are not a true TD, as they do not out range a Tanks 4km range.  The proposed(at one time) ADATS turret on a LAV chasis would fill the true role of a TD as they have a 10km range.  Far out reaching the Tanks ability to reach out and touch them, which is the while point of TD's not needing heavy armour protection.  They should never be in range of a tank round :-/

 
Kat Stevens said:
Deja vu, far out, man.
Indeed.  A sign maybe that we are too quick to kill some capabilities.


... But a WWII style TD or stug or s-tank are not the way to go in the missile age when it comes time to revive the capability.
 
Old EO Tech said:
Yes a mistake that again proven this spring on Ex PR/MR, LAV's are no match for a troop of any tanks that manage to sweep behind the FEBA, and take out the CCP :-/

But on another note, the LAV TUA though needed to augment the AT capabilities of a Inf Bn, are not a true TD, as they do not out range a Tanks 4km range.  The proposed(at one time) ADATS turret on a LAV chasis would fill the true role of a TD as they have a 10km range.  Far out reaching the Tanks ability to reach out and touch them, which is the while point of TD's not needing heavy armour protection.  They should never be in range of a tank round :-/

Sorry to burst your bubble, but tanks can indeed engage targets out past 10km. It's not done very often, but it can be done.

Besides, if we do our job correctly, ADATS wouldn't see a tank troop until its too late and too close.

Regards
 
This capability was available in the 80s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QehccGhnR94

Shouldn't we have it by now?

From the Comments:

1. The missile is the Swedish Bofors RBS-56 BOFORS BILL2 - the first 'top-attack' SACLOS ATGM in the world.

2. The date is around 1986 and the location is the BOFORS AB live-firing test range in Sweden - you can hear the Swedish WOC if you listen hard.

3. The target tank is a retired Centurion and is it radio-controlled.

4. It has doctored munitions to give an impressive result.

5. The clip can be seen on the video 'World Missiles and Missile Systems'.
 
Nerf herder said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but tanks can indeed engage targets out past 10km. It's not done very often, but it can be done.

Besides, if we do our job correctly, ADATS wouldn't see a tank troop until its too late and too close.

Regards

Theoretically yes, but not practical at all, using HE/HESH rounds and superelevating the gun like an artillery piece, it can be done.  Apparently the isreal's did this using M51 and Centurions using spotters with special long range optics, to do corrections, but this is a special case.  We both know the FC Computer in either the C2 or 2A4 can't range/direct fire past 4K/5K respectively.  And this is what our doctrine is based on. 

The longest confirmed "recent" case of long range tank engagement was in the first gulf war, with the Brits Challenger 1's hitting targets and just over 5K with HESH round fired from their smooth bore barrels, in desert terrain of course were you can see that far with the standard FCS of the tank.

As far as ADATS goes, yes I've seen tanks hide and maneuver very well, and you could likely hide from their optics....it's rather harder to hide from their RADAR though....
 
Of course in a conventional war, the ADATs would have to bug out as soon as it has lit up the area with it's radar and fired a couple of shots, otherwise it would quickly be on the receiving end of a MLRS strike.
 
I can tell you with some certainty that there were engagements between 4-5km in Afghanistan. I've heard of a few over that, but only rumour and not substantiated.

Regards
 
I won't ask what we need this for, because it's always a good thing to be able to kill tanks....but the question of adding a separate platform/vehicle to gain this capability makes...well....not much sense to me.

I'll go back into my lane and stick with small arms and Navy stuff....

NS
 
Colin P said:
Of course in a conventional war, the ADATs would have to bug out as soon as it has lit up the area with it's radar and fired a couple of shots, otherwise it would quickly be on the receiving end of a MLRS strike.

The old M113 TUA always had to move soon as well, all that smoke pin pointing their location :-/  On Ex MR we had an ADATS with the A2 and the "enemy" actually jammed the RADAR on part of the map, which of course lead to a recce of the area :p
 
NavyShooter said:
I won't ask what we need this for, because it's always a good thing to be able to kill tanks....but the question of adding a separate platform/vehicle to gain this capability makes...well....not much sense to me.

I'll go back into my lane and stick with small arms and Navy stuff....

NS

Well; I suppose it would be like designing all the ships in the Navy off one platform and then making your Aircraft Carriers, Landing Ship Tanks, Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, Patrol Vessels, Tenders, etc. modular and mixing and matching to fit the requirements.
 
Maybe we should ditch the Tank Destroyer designation and just focus on the idea of a compact fire support vehicle. In a perfect world, a Leopard 2A5 would show up in the nick of time and send the threat to the other world with a well placed APDSFS dart, but there are precious few Leopard 2 tanks in our inventory, Leopards have mobility restrictions based on size and weight, and there may be times *we* might have to take fire support in by air or sea (Kirkhill's suggestion about the airportability of a Hetzer like vehicle hints at that).

Now a high mobility vehicle like a BV 206/Viking/Bronco has the mobility to get in and out of all kinds of unexpected places, and can be slung under (or if properly prepared, carried inside) a helicopter like a Chinook. The large size allows it to carry extra ammunition and ancillary gear like electro/optical surveillance equipment or an APU which can enhance the ability to engage targets with a missile or a recoilless cannon. The downside is even a Bronco isn't that heavily protected, and once the enemy is aware of your presence (from the launch signature of the missile or the backblast of your recoilless weapon) they will be shooting back. Technical solutions like a "soft launch" missile with a reduced signature or a High/Low pressure recoilless cannon are possible, but have not been developed to the extent that we could engage with a Hellfire like missile or the equivlent to the 120mm WOMBAT recoilless cannon (anything less would just make an enemy tanker angry).

A small protected platform like the hypothetical Hetzer II allows the crew to close up and engage bunkers and field fortifications, fire at exposed enemy infantry with HE, cannister rounds or machine gun fire and if properly situated, ambush enemy AFV's and have a fighting chance of surviving enemy counterfire while escaping. Just as an aside, the newest ROK IFV (K-21) is evidently made of composite materials so has the protection of typical steel IFV's in a 25 ton package, so the Hetzer II could potentially make use of this technology to provide far more protection than might be expected. While a small, high velocity cannon would provide the means to deal with AFV's, it would have less effect on other targets, so a 105mm cannon or howitzer would provide the ability to take on a wider range of targets at the price of less performance against an AFV. A box launcher with Javelin fire and forget ATGMs on the roof could fix that.

So what do we have? A hypothetical vehicle to provide direct fire support in close terrain, potentially capable of being placed alongside light forces to give them more punch and to free up tanks for other roles. Is is doable? OF course; the technical issues are relatively simple, and we have more than a century of AFV experience to draw from. Can it be done? Maybe, if a need presents itself and the Army decides to put resources to the project. Will it be done? Not likely. (Even if I was Generalissimo of the Armed Forces I would preferentially put resources to bulking out the tank fleet and standardizing platforms. You would see an armed version of the Bronco, though)
 
Thucydides,
Are you looking for a Hetzer 2013, or a Universal Carrier 2013 to support light forces and act as the platform for various heavy weapons (from HMGs & AGLs to heavy long range anti-armour missiles)?

When you talk about a Hetzer 2013, you are really talking about a vehicle to fit in along the mechanized force.  In that case, LAV Anti-Tank or even just missiles on platoon LAVs would achieve the desired capability while keeping to a manageable number of platform types.

 
Old EO Tech said:
We both know the FC Computer in either the C2 or 2A4 can't range/direct fire past 4K/5K respectively.  And this is what our doctrine is based on.

Lets just say I'm a SME on Armd doctrine, and the tools are there for any CC to engage further out, kept at the unit IG level. It's not hard, nor is it rocket science.

There are corrections and techniques available using onboard GLI  and using estimated technique then to allow for semi-indirect and are taught on the basic Leo gunner course, for both C2 and Leo2.

On the subject of ADATS, if it was the be all, end all platform for both air and anti-tank....why was it not adopted by every major NATO ally? Why did we drop it? I know every time (5 launches by three different CFRs) I saw an attempt to fire a missile, it didn't or would completely miss the intended target.
 
Think the only hits I saw where from the Direct Fire Team trials....... ;D
 
In some ways the Sheridan did try to fulfill the role we are giving to the Hetzer II. The problem of course was that the Sheridan was supposed to also do recce, AT work and be amphibious. It ended up being an OK infantry support vehicle in Vietnam, thanks mainly to the HE/cannister rounds for it's 152mm. The missile system was a bust in real life.

One option for the Hetzer II would be a redesigned 152mm gun, using ammo fitted with conventional cases instead of combustible and do away with the screw breech.

Cases and breech can be seen here
http:// 

HE shells here
 
MCG said:
Thucydides,
Are you looking for a Hetzer 2013, or a Universal Carrier 2013 to support light forces and act as the platform for various heavy weapons (from HMGs & AGLs to heavy long range anti-armour missiles)?

When you talk about a Hetzer 2013, you are really talking about a vehicle to fit in along the mechanized force.  In that case, LAV Anti-Tank or even just missiles on platoon LAVs would achieve the desired capability while keeping to a manageable number of platform types.

Hmmm.

Wish list as Generalissimo would be a "standard" platform, so if we stick to a wheeled fleet for everything except tanks then some sort of LAV varient will do. There are plenty of "drop in" turrets on the market for gun armed versions (the BMP-3 turret was demonstrated on a similar Finnish 8X8 AFV, to give you some idea of what is possible). LAV SPAAGs, Engineer support vehicles, mortar carriers, logistics vehicles etc. all exist or have been demonstrated as well. The madness of multiple incompatible LAV platforms would end, however.

If we want to go for a tracked fleet, the CV-90 family has demonstrated most of the models our ideal army would like (instead of a "Hetzer 2013" we could get a light tank armed with a 120mm cannon: the CV90120)

For difficult terrain, a fleet of Broncos would do the job, once again serving as the basis of a fleet of varients for the various roles needed.
 
Interesting point about the "Bren" Carrier.  That is kind of what I see every time I look at the Wiesel.

It doesn't really fit in with the LAVs and in fact is surplus to requirement for a LAV force.

But... >:D

What happens if instead of force that is 30% light, 60% medium and 10% heavy what happens if you turn the force around to 60% light, 30% medium and 10% heavy.  I suggest that the money saved in acquiring air portable support vehicles for the light forces could be invested in properly equipping the medium and heavy forces.  Also, with a little imagination in terms of cap badge allocation the light forces could rotate through the medium and heavy roles.

The light configuration would be equally valid for reserve troops fitted with Pickups, trailers, bobcats and quads. 


Our governments are not likely to be using LAVs and Tanks in Canada (or North America).  And they can't ship them overseas without long consultations and preparations.

A light force that can be heavied up over time makes for a much more useful configuration - although the Government may not actually want a useful force.  Then they might be called to use it.


Back to the point.


A Hetzer (or Stug) would be a useful addition to the 10% of the force that is Heavy.

The "Bren" carrier might make a useful addition to the 60% of the regular force that should be light.

 
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