Mechanical Breaching (From: Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT)

[SeanNewman]

Sidebar, but for you tank experts what was the downfall of the flail?  Did the roller just prove to do the same thing without having to replace the chains?

My outsider hypothesis would be that in WW2 tanks weren't that powerful so a flail was easier than pushing a roller that was so heavy, but now that tanks are so powerful it became easier (?)

 

[vonGarvin]

So, if the German engineers do breaches, does that mean the German artillery handles indirect fire like, oh ,mortars?  >

Not quite, no.  Integral fire support is still an infantry task.    >

But, interestingly, I recall that at one point the Germans were criticised for having an MICV that could not swim. Their response was that since their tanks don't swim, then why should the MICVs?  After all, to cross a river properly, you need the engineers, right?

 

[George Wallace]

Sidebar, but for you tank experts what was the downfall of the flail?  Did the roller just prove to do the same thing without having to replace the chains?

My outsider hypothesis would be that in WW2 tanks weren't that powerful so a flail was easier than pushing a roller that was so heavy, but now that tanks are so powerful it became easier (?)

Mine Rollers and Mine Plows are simple attachments.  Mine Flails are more complicated, requiring some additional mechanism to drive the flails.

 

[Old Sweat]

Mine Rollers and Mine Plows are simple attachments.  Mine Flails are more complicated, requiring some additional mechanism to drive the flails.

Further to what George said, the Flails were grouped in specialized regiments and farmed out for operations as required. For an explanation of their use take a look at my book No Holding Back, Operation Totalize Normandy 1944. (Better yet, buy everybody you know a copy! Just kidding.)

Trust the Brits to over complicate the task.

 

[observor 69]

Available at your favorite on-line bookstore.  ;D

http://www.amazon.ca/No-Holding-Back-Operation-Totalize/dp/0811705846/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284324000&sr=8-9

 

[Kat Stevens]

Not quite, no.  Integral fire support is still an infantry task.    >

But, interestingly, I recall that at one point the Germans were criticised for having an MICV that could not swim. Their response was that since their tanks don't swim, then why should the MICVs?  After all, to cross a river properly, you need the engineers, right?

That depends.  Do you want an AEV to deep ford across and prepare the far bank for a decent exit, or an AVLB to take the 4 mins required to launch a 22m long bridge,  or would you rather go charging across in your boats and run the risk of maybe 3 getting out before the exit is churned into liquid poo that even the indefatigable LAV can't negotiate?

 

[vonGarvin]

That depends.  Do you want an AEV to deep ford across and prepare the far bank for a decent exit, or an AVLB to take the 4 mins required to launch a 22m long bridge,  or would you rather go charging across in your boats and run the risk of maybe 3 getting out before the exit is churned into liquid poo that even the indefatigable LAV can't negotiate?

I'm not sure, I'd probably want to do a proper crossing.  I'll take the engineer's advice


(Good enough cop-out for you?) ;D

 

[ArmyRick]

I could have sworn I saw a picture of a Leopard from country in South America with a plow attachment. Anybody seen this one before?

 

[Oh No a Canadian]

I could have sworn I saw a picture of a Leopard from country in South America with a plow attachment. Anybody seen this one before?

A Google search for "Chilean Leopard 2" got me to this site.

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/442/

Which has this picture.

 

[PuckChaser]

Looks more like the blade from the Leo2 ARV than a mine plow.

 

[Oh No a Canadian]

Looks more like the blade from the Leo2 ARV than a mine plow.

:-[ Yes your you're right, I must have forgotten the tread topic and question when I was looking at the search results.

 

[PuckChaser]

:-[ Yes your you're right, I must have forgotten the tread topic and question when I was looking at the search results.

Still shows it is possible to have a breaching/digging blade mounted on the front of a Leo 2A4M.

 

[ironduke57]

Well there is the MCC 2000 from Rheinmetall, but it only work against above surface laid mines:

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[The Bread Guy]

A bit late, but DRDC was looking into mechanical plows a few years ago:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/78408.0.html
I haven't seen any research results published in open sources yet.

 

[dogger1936]

A flail would take way more time to employ as well as setting off mines which would effect the system and slow down a breach. Compared to the two impliments it would be much more moving parts that will break at the worst time.

The mineplow simply pushes the mines out of the way into the poils on the sides. The roller following behind is there to go boom if anything gets missed or slides back into the track from the spoil. A third set of rollers is on standby to follow behind if the front roller blows up and has to move into the firelanes created.

It's been a long time since I did a conventional breach, however I have breached 21 km strait with a mine plow on one occasion; and it works well. While the mine plow was a write off afterwards as the teeth were worn down so bad, it did it's job.Both motors were blown as well, and using the chain it was no problem to get back into the travel mode.

During our tour we had the badger attached to my C/S everytime we rolled. Myself and the badger worked as a breach team which worked really well. We had a great working relation/rapport and they were like part of our troop. While a bridge layer would have come in real handy in some occasions we made due with a AHSVS with culverts and the badger. Like the tank troops there were some good "operators" and some poor. The ones always attached to our troop were awesome.

Those other troops who had problems with their tanks and the rollers/plows didnt time any torsion bars and looked at you weird when you mentioned it. then they were wondering why our troop was doing 55km/hr with a roller and they couldnt. Or why they were blowing track every turn. Hence the rapport we built with the infantry. :nod:

I also had a few chances to use the dozer blade (26!) in operations a couple times. I made great fire positios with it as well and improving breached routes and causing "manouver damage" as part of my own private physops program ;D

As far as I'm concerned make the brackets to fit the old gear. It all works great. They have adopted the roller bracket from what I've seen, lets look at a solution to mount the old impliments which work great.

I love breaching. It's by far the best job ever...and you get first dibs at targets! Win Win!


edit to add: Our c2 plows were the new version with the extra tooth put on to be the width of the leo 2. Having a very poor memory nowadays I gorgot about that!

 

[wildman0101]

Flail(think mace) type weopon.
imagine a paper tube with
flail (mace) attachment's ,
2 large arm's with tube,
arm's are chain driven turning
tube,,, flailing(beating the
ground) 50-60ish mace's flail-
ing the ground attempting to
set off I.E.D.'s.
So as far as i know they are
still being used around the world
in some way, shape, or form. But
in so close a proximity of said tank
or vehical using it, not today.
Just my thought's
Cheer's,
Scoty B

 

[dogger1936]

Roger that Scotty. I remember seeing them used in Yugo as the civilian contractors were using a robotic flail to clear a conventional minefield.

 

[wildman0101]

Or the old fasion
way, the probe,, sharp pointy stick. Or older yet,, bayonet.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from MERX:

The purpose of this draft Statement of Work (SOW) is to communicate the Canadian Forces' requirement and solicit pricing information as well as feedback from the industry regarding the possible supply of items, design and implementation of a solution to meet the Leopard 2 Tactical Mobility Implements (TMIs) requirement. The information is essential to support the Government of Canada's decision-making process such as finalizing its requirement, determining its procurement strategy and obtaining substantive pricing for Government approval to proceed with the Project ....

The implements listed in the Draft Statement of Work (PDF viewable or downloadable here) include:
- Dozer blade,
- Track Width Mine Plough, and
- Mine Clearing Roller System.

Call for pricing information closes 2011-02-22 02:00 PM Eastern Standard Time EST

 

[Franko]

The stuff we have works well and is easy to repair in the field. Why tender to get something that hasn't been trialed or proven under fire?

Sigh.