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Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

rmc_wannabe

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I agree with you for the most part. As I am sure you know the "working conditions" might be getting shot at, freezing your ass off in an assembly area, being soaked to the skin and hypothermic or extreme heat. Never mind getting yelled at to "move up on the left" as you try to attack an objective.

My point being is that the nation has forgotten what sacrifice is.
Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig.

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people.
 
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In speaking with my son's buddies (early 20's) it's all about the money and learning a trade that they can use later. One is in the reserves and lives on the wages he makes from that so the pay seems pretty good.. They suggest focusing on the wages and trades/skills.
 

Weinie

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Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig.

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people.
Feel better now?
 

Halifax Tar

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Feel better now?

Do you ?

Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig.

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people.

I think you hit the nail on the head. People don't mind hardship and sacrifice but it has to be for a well articulated and understood reason.

Because because doesn't fly anymore.
 

Quirky

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God forbid we let our actual capacity determine what we are able to do, and plan accordingly.

There in lies the problem, we are operating as if we're 100% manned. Every mission and tasking is a no-fail.

Having said that droves of people were signing up like crazy to get to Afghanistan.
"There are four types of people who join the military. For some, it's family trade. Others are patriots, eager to serve. Next you have those who just need a job. Than there's the kind who want the legal means of killing other people."

I joined 2 years after 9/11 and half of our basic was infantry. I'd say the quote above is very accurate from what I saw.
 

IKnowNothing

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I agree with you for the most part. As I am sure you know the "working conditions" might be getting shot at, freezing your ass off in an assembly area, being soaked to the skin and hypothermic or extreme heat. Never mind getting yelled at to "move up on the left" as you try to attack an objective.

My point being is that the nation has forgotten what sacrifice is.
Honestly I think both you and @btrudy are missing the mark. It's not combat, but full-time police and firefighting gigs are extremely competitive to get into, both carry the risk. All kinds of fully staffed jobs carry physical hardship, institutional BS, etc.

In my eyes (speaking as someone who has decided against myself) bigger factors are
-place. drawing a commute radius around every CAF base and duty station, assume that a significant % of the population outside of those circles have no interest in coming within (or leaving where they are)
-lifestyle. tonnes of Canadians will move mountains for their jobs and careers, work stupid hours, etc. But they want to leave it there and have a home and family life outside of that, that is their own.
-family. Combination of the two above, + having a significant other on board

That's threading a needle. Narrow pool on board with all of: the danger, the hardship, the institutional bs, the geography, the lifestyle, and has their family on board. Then that pool does their due diligence, reads about Hornets almost ready to fall out the sky, leadership scandals, Battalions that haven't been equipped to modern standards for doctrine in (a) decade(s)(? ).... then they go up north. Or to the oilpatch, etc
 

Infanteer

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Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

Good, I don't want nor need a majority of Canadians in the CAF. I want the best Canadians, and want them to look at the CAF as either a good short term experience or long term career.

Now its up to leaders (like me, I guess?) to make the institution a place where the best want to be.
 

Brad Sallows

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training exercises where the exercise is intentionally made harder and more uncomfortable and unpleasant than you'd actually ever see on operations

Training harder than you expect to fight is always worthwhile; it's also unlikely that any kind of training will approach the worst days of operations (war). Permissive or non-permissive peacekeeping, and low intensity operations, aren't good yardsticks for "train as you fight".

Some of the mental/physical/financial stresses can be mitigated by the CAF alone; ultimately the important drivers are the requirements imposed by government and resources provided by government. Those are political factors and can only be fixed in the political arena. Laying all of that sh!t at the feet of DND/CAF is awesome for the politicians - they love it when people carry that water - but fruitless for fixing problems at the source.

This is part of the same bag of propaganda as the notion that CAF has to reflect the population and has racism problems of crisis magnitude. Armed forces in most countries have rarely reflected a population; but lo, they have successfully fought wars. The US has always experienced much more severe racism than Canada, but somehow it manages. It's high time people started grabbing the politicians and talking heads by the snout (figuratively) and challenging them on the happy horsesh!t they parade as premises for their arguments. Force them to articulate rational arguments and divide what can/should be fixed by the CAF from the honey-do lists of people who are unhappy with status quo Canadian society.
 

Weinie

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Do you ?



I think you hit the nail on the head. People don't mind hardship and sacrifice but it has to be for a well articulated and understood reason.

Because because doesn't fly anymore.
Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.

When someone posts:

Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig. CHECK

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig. GET OVER IT. IT ACTUALLY IS PART OF THE GIG. WHAT GIG DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GETTING GIGGED INTO?

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig. I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN MANY TOXIC LEADERS OR UNSAFE WORK CONDITIONS. YOU CAN ALWAYS VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig. NOT EXCUSING IT, BUT WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. HAVE YOU WATCHED TV/SURFED THE INTERNET LATELY? IT IS NOT A CAF EXCLUSIVE PROBLEM. SOME PEOPLE ARE A-HOLES.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig. IF IT WAS CONDEMNED, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN IT. IF YOU WERE, CONTACT VAC

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people. THROUGHOUT MY GIG, SACRIFICE AND HARDSHIP CAME ON OPS, SUPPORTING OPS, AND LOOKING AFTER THE WELL BEING OF MY PEOPLE. IT WAS A CATCH ALL, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS EXPECTED/REQUIRED.
 

JLB50

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All of what I’m hearing makes for a strong case in favour of, yes, you guessed it…conscription...especially Swiss-style conscription like they have for every able-bodied male (or able-bodied whatever). Not saying we’ll ever get it though. Mr. Fancy Sox himself would never have the balls to do it. Oh, I forgot, he never did seem to have any balls In the first place.
 

Brad Sallows

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1. Conscription is an illiberal imposition on the people conscripted.
2. We don't need that many people. As I wrote once before, divide half (assume half are unsuitable for one reason or another, a ridiculously generous overestimate) of the number of annual high school graduates in Canada by the maximum number of people in a training platoon and explain how that many courses could be run each year.
3. It's another drain on effectiveness to impose upon leaders the burden of leading people who don't really want to be there.
 

daftandbarmy

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Training harder than you expect to fight is always worthwhile; it's also unlikely that any kind of training will approach the worst days of operations (war). Permissive or non-permissive peacekeeping, and low intensity operations, aren't good yardsticks for "train as you fight".

In my experience most soldiers and Junior Officers want to do this, to push themselves and 'train as we fight', because they know that the real thing is really hard.

Many Senior Officers and NCOs are of the opposite opinion, and will not entertain really tough training for a variety of reasons related to overall risk aversion.

And also because alot of them are just pussies ;)
 

Halifax Tar

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Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.

When someone posts:

Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig. CHECK

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig. GET OVER IT. IT ACTUALLY IS PART OF THE GIG. WHAT GIG DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GETTING GIGGED INTO?

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig. I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN MANY TOXIC LEADERS OR UNSAFE WORK CONDITIONS. YOU CAN ALWAYS VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig. NOT EXCUSING IT, BUT WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. HAVE YOU WATCHED TV/SURFED THE INTERNET LATELY? IT IS NOT A CAF EXCLUSIVE PROBLEM. SOME PEOPLE ARE A-HOLES.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig. IF IT WAS CONDEMNED, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN IT. IF YOU WERE, CONTACT VAC

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people. THROUGHOUT MY GIG, SACRIFICE AND HARDSHIP CAME ON OPS, SUPPORTING OPS, AND LOOKING AFTER THE WELL BEING OF MY PEOPLE. IT WAS A CATCH ALL, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS EXPECTED/REQUIRED.

Thank you for your service and I hope you get the most out of retirement.
 

rmc_wannabe

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Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.

When someone posts:

Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig. CHECK

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig. GET OVER IT. IT ACTUALLY IS PART OF THE GIG. WHAT GIG DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GETTING GIGGED INTO?

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig. I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN MANY TOXIC LEADERS OR UNSAFE WORK CONDITIONS. YOU CAN ALWAYS VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig. NOT EXCUSING IT, BUT WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. HAVE YOU WATCHED TV/SURFED THE INTERNET LATELY? IT IS NOT A CAF EXCLUSIVE PROBLEM. SOME PEOPLE ARE A-HOLES.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig. IF IT WAS CONDEMNED, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN IT. IF YOU WERE, CONTACT VAC

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people. THROUGHOUT MY GIG, SACRIFICE AND HARDSHIP CAME ON OPS, SUPPORTING OPS, AND LOOKING AFTER THE WELL BEING OF MY PEOPLE. IT WAS A CATCH ALL, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS EXPECTED/REQUIRED.
This is part of the culture we are trying to shift away from.

#TYFYS.
 

OldSolduer

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Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

Good, I don't want nor need a majority of Canadians in the CAF. I want the best Canadians, and want them to look at the CAF as either a good short term experience or long term career.

Now its up to leaders (like me, I guess?) to make the institution a place where the best want to be.
I think you‘ve nailed it, 👍🏻
 

MilEME09

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Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF

Good, I don't want nor need a majority of Canadians in the CAF. I want the best Canadians, and want them to look at the CAF as either a good short term experience or long term career.

Now its up to leaders (like me, I guess?) to make the institution a place where the best want to be.
I agree, but what it shows is less and less consider it a career, meaning less volume going to recruiting centers, and even less candidates to select.
 

btrudy

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Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.

When someone posts:

Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig. CHECK

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig. GET OVER IT. IT ACTUALLY IS PART OF THE GIG. WHAT GIG DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GETTING GIGGED INTO?

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig. I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN MANY TOXIC LEADERS OR UNSAFE WORK CONDITIONS. YOU CAN ALWAYS VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig. NOT EXCUSING IT, BUT WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. HAVE YOU WATCHED TV/SURFED THE INTERNET LATELY? IT IS NOT A CAF EXCLUSIVE PROBLEM. SOME PEOPLE ARE A-HOLES.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig. IF IT WAS CONDEMNED, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN IT. IF YOU WERE, CONTACT VAC

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people. THROUGHOUT MY GIG, SACRIFICE AND HARDSHIP CAME ON OPS, SUPPORTING OPS, AND LOOKING AFTER THE WELL BEING OF MY PEOPLE. IT WAS A CATCH ALL, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS EXPECTED/REQUIRED.
Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.

It's like some people forget that loyalty is a two-way street. If we want people to stick around, we need to make it worth their while. Berating them about how "IT"S PART OF THE GIG WHY DID YOU SIGN UP" when they express displeasure about aspects of the job which are destroying their finances, relationships, etc will result in "You're right, why the hell did I sign up, I'm out of here".

If we want to keep people, we need to be a better employer than the alternatives. Stop telling people that they "can always vote with their feet", BECAUSE THEY ARE AND THAT'S THE BLOODY PROBLEM.

Or, you know, instead you can yell at people when they tell you why they're leaving. That'll improve morale.
 

dimsum

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I agree, but what it shows is less and less consider it a career, meaning less volume going to recruiting centers, and even less candidates to select.
I wouldn't say that less people considering it a 25-year career would mean that fewer people are going to recruiting centres.

There are plenty of articles saying that the current generation aren't tied to lifetime careers. So, maybe offering it as one is the wrong approach. What do our allies in Australia, New Zealand, etc do?

I'm sure others have said it here but offer it as something different when you're in your early 20s. If you want to continue, then make it a career.

On the other hand, we're one of the few employers to offer a pension you can collect before age 65. That won't appeal to an 18-year old, but probably will to a 25 or 30-year old.
 

Brad Sallows

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No point arguing over (guessing) why people are leaving without numbers. CAF needs to face facts, but they have to be facts (empirical), not conjecture based on stories and people who've been able to tell them.
 
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