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Little bit of Naval Aweseome (HMCS OTTAWA ships moral badge)

Underway said:
Some of us developed a plan along with these sailors (and another) to put forward to the CSC naming committee regarding how to approach resurecting the Tribals. There is certainly an ear for it.

The Plan:
Basically you take the old Tribal class names. You rename them using the accepted language/spelling from the group they were supposed to represent. So like you said, Haudenosaunee instead of Iroquois.

The ship also gets a new crest designed by a Haudenosaunee artist in a traditional style combined with the current naval crest symbolism.

Finally you keep the battle honours of the previous Iroquois, to bring those into the future. Basically the ship is the same, we're just using a new name for it. It also wouldn't be the first time a ship crest was redisigned/updated. The ships motto could be updated as well if necessary. In Iroqouis case Relentless in chase could stay the same or undergo a language modification.

Why It Works:
Ship names generally meet a few criteria:
  1. Connects with Canadians/Canadian communities
  2. Brings forward Canadian Naval Heritage/History
  3. Be recognizable as Canadian
  4. No disrespectful or death symbolism (so no the Erebus and Terror are likely not available due to that)
The proposed plan meets all of the above criteria. (1) is met by the FN communities the ship will be named after, (2) it keeps the battle honours and history of the original Tribal classes, (3) kinda obvious but again Canadian FN communites, (4) goes that extra mile for reconciliation with respect and honour.

There is an unofficial (5) which is it's got a positive political message. And this would get all party support no mater who was in Gov't.

The previous Tribal Class names (1936):
  • Iroqouis
  • Athabaskan
  • Algonquin
  • Huron
  • Haida (bring it back to active duty, no need to rename the old ship)
  • Micmac
  • Nootka
  • Cayooga

Some other ship names from RCN history that could be used and carry on battle honours (originally River class or subs but if the name fits):
  • Kootany - I mentioned this name to a CPO2 and he got all teary eyed at the idea that Kootany could be brough back
  • Ojibwa
  • Okanogan (Syilx)
  • Onadoga
  • Sioux (Nakota/Dakota)
  • Assiniboine

Some major first nations groups that should have ships named after them:
  • Cree (largest of the "nations" in Canada)
  • Inuit
  • Metis
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HMCS Tŝilhqot’in (Chilcotin)?
HMCS Secwépemc (Shuswap)?
 
Or we could look at another fantastic part of Canada's history: The Canadiens class, named after players from the '70s team who have had their numbers retired:
  • 10 Guy Lafleur
  • 12 Yvan Cournoyer
  • 16 Henri Richard
  • 18 Serge Savard
  • 19 Larry Robinson
  • 23 Bob Gainey
  • 29 Ken Dryden
Or grow to all Habs with their numbers retired:
  • 1 Jacques Plante
  • 2 Doug Harvey
  • 4 Jean Beliveau
  • 5 Bernard Geoffrion
  • 7 Howie Morenz
  • 9 Maurice Richard
  • 33 Patrick Roy
(Which also grows the class to 14).

I mean, I'm assuming we want to name the class after something successful, so that rules out the Maple Leafs...
 
Underway said:
Fear of offending someone is one of the largest barriers to reconciliation.
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But the other side the argument, in this context anyway, is how significant adopting/using an indigenous name or word is in the grand scheme of reconciliation? I suppose it could be accepted as a series of small steps. It's like 'land acknowledgement statements' that now get read at the beginning of council meetings, conventions, etc. At what point do they become a trite recitation, like grace before dinner or airline safety briefings?

The problem that society seems to have now is an attitude that 'if it doesn't speak directly to me, then it offends me'. I'm not convinced that this attitude is held by the general population or its sub-groups, but seems to be a foundation by many group advocates and social activists. In a city who's news I somewhat follow, a FN community leader has said flatly that "Indigenous peoples don’t want their names on things like ships and army regiments". Many FN cultures say they govern by consensus, so who do we listen to, or is it a simple matters of asking permission? The same community is also going through an exercise of re-naming a school which is named after an Anishinaabe sub-group, because a Board trustee feels it offensive (it is not clear to me, how). The media asked the Chief of the local FNT and his reply was essentially: meh.

A mentioned, we will never be able to enjoy the unity of FN history and tradition that New Zealand enjoys.
 
CICOPS said:
Nice looking badge. Interesting to read the meaning behind the design. Bravo Zulu
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Scroll right in the attachment of the first post. It's all explained. It seems they have put a lot of thought into every element of the image.
 
Kilted said:
They are also generally forbidden to be worn.
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The current RCN Moral Badges are an outgrowth of the Army Mission/OP Badges. Officially your allowed to wear your last one or one from the last six months. However they still need to get approval. We've done some home made ones as jokes however while underway. But they have to be removed when we come alongside (birthday photo ones for example)...

lenaitch said:
But the other side the argument, in this context anyway, is how significant adopting/using an indigenous name or word is in the grand scheme of reconciliation? I suppose it could be accepted as a series of small steps. It's like 'land acknowledgement statements' that now get read at the beginning of council meetings, conventions, etc. At what point do they become a trite recitation, like grace before dinner or airline safety briefings?
Click to expand...
Symbolism is an important part of reconciliation. I used to think symbolism was silly. Then I was part of a number of military events where the people involved used some symbology that really connected with other Canadians. Strong emotions are tied up into symbols, it makes people feel seen or recognized and that's important. One of my ships company is from the Kootany reserve. If the RCN brough back HMCS Kootany he told me that they would be so proud, and that it would be a tipping point for some of the youngsters there to join the RCN, to serve on the ship named after their people.

Given that City Class doesn't really connect with Canadians in a meaningful way anymore (for most communities anyways), then a return of the Iroquois Class might just do that.

FSTO said:
The first meeting of the CSC Naming committee will be in mid May. I'm the secretary for the committee.
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See now people know my in! And I thought I was part of a special club! Seriously though, the more widely discussed the better the Committee has a feel for what people are thinking.
 
dapaterson said:
I mean, I'm assuming we want to name the class after something successful, so that rules out the Maple Leafs...
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Depends on your definition of success. By market valuation and ability to basically print money, the Leafs are doing just fine.
 
dapaterson said:
Or we could look at another fantastic part of Canada's history: The Canadiens class, named after players from the '70s team who have had their numbers retired:
  • 10 Guy Lafleur
  • 12 Yvan Cournoyer
  • 16 Henri Richard
  • 18 Serge Savard
  • 19 Larry Robinson
  • 23 Bob Gainey
  • 29 Ken Dryden
Or grow to all Habs with their numbers retired:
  • 1 Jacques Plante
  • 2 Doug Harvey
  • 4 Jean Beliveau
  • 5 Bernard Geoffrion
  • 7 Howie Morenz
  • 9 Maurice Richard
  • 33 Patrick Roy
(Which also grows the class to 14).

I mean, I'm assuming we want to name the class after something successful, so that rules out the Maple Leafs...
Click to expand...
You forgot the Pride of the Chilcotin, 31 Carey Price!
 
Underway said:
See now people know my in! And I thought I was part of a special club! Seriously though, the more widely discussed the better the Committee has a feel for what people are thinking.
Click to expand...
Ha ha, I figured that people will collect the dots in due time and you're right, more heat and light will (maybe) sway the board.
 
Underway said:
Symbolism is an important part of reconciliation. I used to think symbolism was silly. Then I was part of a number of military events where the people involved used some symbology that really connected with other Canadians. Strong emotions are tied up into symbols, it makes people feel seen or recognized and that's important. One of my ships company is from the Kootany reserve. If the RCN brough back HMCS Kootany he told me that they would be so proud, and that it would be a tipping point for some of the youngsters there to join the RCN, to serve on the ship named after their people.
Click to expand...
You're right, and I have to admit my position on this keeps moving. Symbolism and engagement seems to me to be the strongest approach. No decision will ever make everybody happy. I guess my spidey senses illuminate when I see initiatives such this (or renaming a street, school, hockey team, etc.) are initiated or pushed by politicians large and small or social activists that have absolutely no connection with the cultural slight alleged. That strikes me as no less paternalistic (can I even say that now?) that the original act now complained of.
 
^^
The FN folks I've chatted with so far have been very supportive of the idea and their eyes lit up when I made my pitch. One of my ideas is that the CSC Destroyers are designed to bring the thunder and lightening to our enemies. There are many versions of the thunder gods in indigenous mythology. I had a very interesting discussion with one of my FN contacts on how that idea could be incorporated into the naming of the class.
 
@FSTO thanks for that update, that's great news.

@lenaitch I think it was something that started later in the life of the Iroquois class, but there was a relationship with the namesake band and the ships. The CO and Coxn would occasionally travel out to some kind of events, there was a regular letter that went out, and there were gifts exchanged. So similar to what we did with the Halifax class and namesake city visits I guess.

I was posted to the NCR by the time they retired, but from what I remember there were some elders from the same namesake bands also involved with the paying off ceremonies. I think there was some smudgings a few times as well before that, which is great as they needed any blessing they could get near the end.

So I think if there was something like that it would be more than just a performative hand waving and be useful, and also be an easy way for the people posted there to learn a bit about the band as well. And probably a great opportunity for some really cool ship's crests, as some of the current CPF ones are really lame.

Can't make everyone happy though; it's like when the Edmonton team retired the 'Eskimo' name. That one seemed to be generational, as there were older folks who didn't seem to mind 'Eskimo' and more younger folks that took it as a slur, but then went with something safe to keep the same logo. I'm sure whatever we do there will be someone angry somewhere, but at least worth the effort here to try, and I think the work here on OTT shows there is at least some interest and with a bit of extra work can do something meaningful that also looks really good.
 
FSTO said:
There are many versions of the thunder gods in indigenous mythology. I had a very interesting discussion with one of my FN contacts on how that idea could be incorporated into the naming of the class.
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As in elements and meteorological effects? HMCS Storm, Thunderer, Lightning? The RN naturally has already taken up those names over the centuries, but I think they'd be pretty cool too.

Or their FN language equivalents, maybe.
 
dapaterson said:
"HMCS Thunderbolts and Lightning Very Very Frightening"
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Do I detect a break away song?* At least the head banging part at the end!

Navy_Pete said:
@FSTO thanks for that update, that's great news.

@lenaitch I think it was something that started later in the life of the Iroquois class, but there was a relationship with the namesake band and the ships. The CO and Coxn would occasionally travel out to some kind of events, there was a regular letter that went out, and there were gifts exchanged. So similar to what we did with the Halifax class and namesake city visits I guess.
.....

So I think if there was something like that it would be more than just a performative hand waving and be useful, and also be an easy way for the people posted there to learn a bit about the band as well. And probably a great opportunity for some really cool ship's crests, as some of the current CPF ones are really lame.
Click to expand...

That's the idea from the proposal which was shared with @FSTO early in the process as he began polling sailors. And honestly if a politico is there to do the hand wave, sure that's fine. But the sailors that I've talked to and heard a variation on this theme have a real interest, hunger even to be part of solutions to things. And this feels right in a lot of ways. Does it solve the problem? Not even close. Does it bring us to a better place than before? I think it might do that.

*a break away is when you leave a Replenishment At Sea. As it can be a long, dangerous evolution which involves the entire watch there is usually a loud or energetic song that accompanies the break away. Ships have a theme song. Also RAS candy is a thing for those who handle the various lines.
 
@Underway there be rumours going around that, despite the amount of consultation that went into it, someone made a complaint on some grounds about the OTTAWA morale patch, and it's been kiboshed.
 
Underway said:
Fear of offending someone is one of the largest barriers to reconciliation.

Thanks for that. I'm a pendant so will adjust my language accordingly. If I'm able I'll go back and edit the post to refect the proper terminology.
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The errorists win. :sneaky:
 
Lumber said:
@Underway there be rumours going around that, despite the amount of consultation that went into it, someone made a complaint on some grounds about the OTTAWA morale patch, and it's been kiboshed.
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This is really dumb if true.
 
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