IE 20 and Imediate Pension at 20 years service

[Halifax Tar]

So I am under the old IE 20.  My Contract/TOS is up in 2020.

Today I recieved an interesting email from a fellow member who told me that although he is under the IE 20, like myself, he is not eligible for a pension until he completes 25 years, or 55 years of age.

Am I confused here or is being fed bad info ? 

Any help from the pension/admin/pay gurus would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[DAA]

So I am under the old IE 20.  My Contract/TOS is up in 2020.
Today I recieved an interesting email from a fellow member who told me that although he is under the IE 20, like myself, he is not eligible for a pension until he completes 25 years, or 55 years of age.
Am I confused here or is being fed bad info ? 
Any help from the pension/admin/pay gurus would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

Hard to say but your TOS/Re-engagement timelines are right around the introduction of the new TOS regulations (ie; MILPERSCOM Instr 05/05).  Pre-May 05, TOS was "normally" 3-year BE, 3-year BE and then an IE 20. (20/40).  The only way you could have converted TOS from the IE20 to the IE25 was by "written" request.  Other than that, you remain on your current terms of service (grandfathered) until they either expire or you are offered new TOS.

Pension Info - http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pension-reg-pre-march-2007/key-features.page

Grandfathering Clause (Pension)  -  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pension-reg-pre-march-2007/definitions.page#grandfathered

 

[ModlrMike]

You are correct, he should be under the 20/40 plan with an immediate annuity at 20 years service. That being said, I believe there was a period when they were phasing in the 25yr pension that you had to elect the 20 year option. My memory is a bit hazy as I was already past 25yrs when the phase in began. I think what happened was those between 20-25 had to elect, and those under 20 were automatically converted to 25yrs. Your TOS might not have changed though as TOS and pension are managed through different chains.

The real answer to your question though, is to sit down with your clerks. Don't just ask the ship's office for an answer, get some face to face time and go over your data. You won't get your pensionabilty reduced to 20 years, but you should be able to get your TOS extended either through CE or IPS; but that's a question for your career manager.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I remember when the change came in and I was offered both the old 20 and the new (at the time) 25.  I signed the 20.

My MPRR correctly (I hope) shows that I am on the IE 20 and my last day of service is Oct 27th 2020.  I am assuming these are reasonably accurate.

Is there any way you could be on the IE 20, choose to retire upon its completion but have your pension held back until you are 55 ?

 

[DAA]

It all depends on just what the individual "did" during the transition period.  If serving on an IE and you did nothing, then you should have "retained" your current TOS and as a result, the changes to the CF Pension regulations which took place 2 years later (ie; in 2007), provided for grandfathering to those who decided to continue with their IE.

If you were already on an IE at the time of the changes, then you remain on that IE.  As of 1 May 05, the next TOS in sequence would have been either a VIE or the IE 25 as directed by your occupational TOS sequence.  The only CF members who were to be offered NEW TOS were those on an IE, who had 18 years of service or more on the date these changes came into being.


PART 2 - ADMINISTRATION OF TERMS OF SERVICE POLICY
TRANSITION PERIOD
8. As of 1 May 2005, the only TOS that those enrolling in the CF will receive are the new TOS set out in this instruction. Currently serving members will retain their TOS upon which they are serving at the date of the introduction of the new TOS. For example, those on an SE will remain on an SE, those on an IE20 will remain on an IE20 and those on an IPS will remain on an IPS. Subsequent offers will only be under the new TOS structure, and those members who are not offered or do not accept the new TOS offer will remain on their current TOS until lawfully released.
Members Eligible for IE25
9. The purpose of extending the IE20 to IE25 is to:
provide additional time for recently recruited members to gain training and experience. Past Force Reduction Programs (FRPs) and restricted recruiting policies have resulted in an experience gap in years of service (YOS) for NCMs and Offrs and time is needed to lessen the impact of this gap; and
improve operational effectiveness by retaining members’ military expertise longer.
10. There will be a transition period during which the following three groups of eligible members may convert to an IE25, as long as they are able to complete IE25 before reaching CRA. Effective 1 May 2005:
members serving on an IE20 who wish to convert to an IE25, are to submit a written request to their Commanding Officers any time prior to the beginning of their 18th year of service;
NOTE: Commanding Officers shall offer an IE25 to members who did not request conversion to an IE25 by using the TOS form (DND 2315). This offer must be made no later than 24 months prior to the termination of their IE20 or by 1 July 2005, for those members who have more than 18 years of service

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ok I just looked at my MPRR again in it says I am on a ORCDP-IE expiring on 27-OCT-2020. 

That tells me then I am on the IE 20 and should be eligable for a pension on the date above if I choose to retire from teh CAF at that time.

Thanks guys much appreciated.

 

[captloadie]

I was on a BE (9 years) during the transition period. At the time, my options were a) sign my IE 20 early and get grandfathered under the old plan, or b)do nothing and then only be eligible for the new TOS when the time rolled around (which for me was an IE 25).

If your friend chooses to release before his current contract expires (be it 20 or 25), he will not be entitled to an immediate annuity and he will not be able to collect until he hits 55/60. That being said, if his MPRR is correct and says he is on an IE20, there should be no issues.

 

[CountDC]

email the pension office and ask. 

 

[ff149]

I just released on the first of October. I was on the old plan and then took my IPS. Shortly after releasing, probably the beginning of November, I received an email from the pension office asking if I wanted to take my pension as a monthly payment, role it into a new pension, or defer it until I turned 55. I would ask your release section to be sure you get the right answer, you can also email the pension office.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Hello All,

Looking to see if anyone has any current info.

I am currently on an IE 20 that is due to expire on Oct 27 2020.

I am starting to hear that people are being told at SCAN Seminars that if you didn't have 10 years service by 2007 then you cannot collect your pension until you are 55 regardless of what TOS you are on. 

This is a bit concerning as there is a large number people who signed the IE 20 around the time of the change to the 25 year IEs under the expectation or belief that we would be eligible to immediate pension payments at a rate of 40% upon the completion of our IE 20.

I am hopping this isn't a duplicate post and I am also hoping we have some release/pension gurus who may be able to shed some light on this.  :stars:

 

[Halifax Tar]

Wow lol thanks Mariomike

I didn't realize I had posted this already...

Need more coffee I guess lol

 

[mariomike]

Wow lol thanks Mariomike

You are welcome. Good luck. 

 

[dapaterson]

As written, the CFSA includes a grandfather clause for those under the old rules:

Alternative annuity for certain members

19 (1) Subject to regulations made under subsection (2), a contributor who ceases to be a member of the regular force, having been a member continuously from the day immediately before the coming into force of this section until the day on which they ceased to be a member, is entitled, at their option, in place of any other benefit under this Part to which they would otherwise be entitled in respect of the pensionable service that they have to their credit, to an annuity, which may be adjusted in accordance with those regulations, payable from the day on which they cease to be a member of the regular force.

Marginal note:Regulations

(2) The Governor in Council may make regulations prescribing the circumstances in which a contributor may exercise an option under subsection (1), the manner of and time for exercising an option and the manner in which the amount of an annuity may be adjusted.

R.S., 1985, c. C-17, s. 19;
2003, c. 26, s. 14.

The regulations then state:

16.1 A contributor exercising the option referred to in subsection 19(1) of the Act is entitled to an immediate annuity if

(a) they have completed a 20-year intermediate engagement that commenced before March 1, 2007 and are not serving on an indefinite period of service;

(b) they have 10 or more years of regular force pensionable service and have reached retirement age;

(c) they are not an officer and have at least 25 years of regular force pensionable service; or

(d) they were a member of the regular force with 10 or more years of regular force pensionable service on March 1, 2007 and

(i) they have at least 20 years of regular force pensionable service, unless

(A) they have at any time served on a 25-year intermediate engagement and do not, at the time of ceasing to be a member of the regular force, have at least 25 years of regular force pensionable service,

(B) they have at any time refused an offer of a 25-year intermediate engagement unless, at the time of the refusal, they were serving on a 20-year intermediate engagement that commenced before March 1, 2007 or had completed a 20-year intermediate engagement that commenced before March 1, 2007, or

(C) at the time they cease to be a member of the regular force they are serving on an indefinite period of service, or


(ii) they have at least 19 years of regular force pensionable service, they are not serving on an intermediate engagement or an engagement for an indefinite period of service in the regular force, they have not at any time received an offer of a 25-year intermediate engagement and they are

(A) an officer who did not fail to accept an offer for an indefinite period of service in the regular force, or
(B) a contributor, other than an officer, who ceases to be a member of the regular force on the expiry of a period of engagement and who did not fail to accept an offer to re-engage in the regular force.


SOR/2007-33, s. 9.

16.2 (1) A contributor described in clause 16.1(d)(i)(A) or (B) is entitled to an immediate annuity that is reduced

(a) in the case of an officer, by 5% for every full year by which their years of age, on the day on which they cease to be a member of the regular force, are less than retirement age; and

(b) in any other case, by 5% multiplied by the lesser of

(i) the number of full years by which their years of age are less than retirement age, and
(ii) the number of full years by which their years of regular force pensionable service are less than 25.


(2) A contributor described in clause 16.1(d)(i)(C) is entitled to an immediate annuity reduced in accordance with subsection (1), but, if the contributor completed a 20-year intermediate engagement that commenced before March 1, 2007, the amount of the annuity may not be less than an amount calculated as follows:

A/50 × B

where
A is the number of years of pensionable service to the contributor’s credit after having completed the 20-year intermediate engagement; andB is the average annual pay received by the contributor during any five-year period of pensionable service selected by or on behalf of the contributor, or during any period so selected consisting of consecutive periods of pensionable service totalling five years.

SOR/2007-33, s. 9.

16.3 (1) A contributor exercising the option referred to in subsection 19(1) of the Act with 10 or more years of regular force pensionable service on March 1, 2007, who has served continuously as a member of the regular force from March 1, 2007 until the day on which they cease to be a member of the regular force and who has less than 20 years of regular force pensionable service, is entitled to an immediate annuity reduced in accordance with subsection (2) if they cease to be a member of the regular force by reason of a workforce reduction.

(2) The immediate annuity is to be reduced by the least of the following percentages:

(a) 30%,
(b) 5% for every full year by which the contributor’s full years of regular force pensionable service are less than 20, or
(c) 5% for every full year by which the contributor’s years of age are less than the retirement age applicable to the contributor’s rank.

(3) The reduction is to cease when the contributor reaches 65 years of age.

SOR/2007-33, s. 9.

In other words, this stull if complicated, and find someone knowledgeable to help you through it - and then check and double-check all your assumptions and conclusions.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have sent a couple of emails off.

The way I read your ref, which I have in front of me as well, is If you get out at your 20 then you get an immediate pension, if you get out at 25 you get an immediate pension but if you get out after 20 and before 25 and you didn't have 10 years of service by 1 Mar '07 then your pension is held back until you are 55.

This whole thing reads like a dogs breakfast made up of a soup sandwich!

 

[Ping Monkey]

I just released in August after completing an IE20.  My pension assessment paperwork arrived on Friday (>2 months since I released) indicating that I had two pension choices to select from:
  1.  Deferred Annuity until Age 60 (or reduced Annual Allowance at 50); or
  2.  Transfer Value.
... Neither of which I had released with the intention of selecting.  I joined in '96, and met all the other prerequisites to start drawing the pension now.  Where was the option to start collecting my Unreduced Annuity?!!  ???

Having already released, you can likely imagine the panic and stress my wife and I suffered through all weekend as we wondered what had gone wrong that was preventing us from collecting my pension now, and the self-doubt that started creeping in making us wonder if we had miscalculated something perhaps screwing ourselves out of the immediate annuity. 

A quick phone call to the federal pension office got it straightened out this morning.  Their system requires an override code to approve IE20 pensions.  Unfortunately that code was not initially applied to my file, but it's since been fixed and a new pension assessment was emailed to us by 10:00am.

<Whew> Big relief... now the waiting game for the cheques to start arriving.  By Christmas maybe?  :-\

 

[Occam]

Aren't you the optimist.  [

 

[Ping Monkey]

My IPR move was a fiasco, so this hiccup seems par for the course.  The way this is going I'm envisioning my first pension cheque arriving something like Clark Griswald's Christmas bonus (including the rant):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RTPUv_vr0

 

[Halifax Tar]

I just released in August after completing an IE20.  My pension assessment paperwork arrived on Friday (>2 months since I released) indicating that I had two pension choices to select from:
  1.  Deferred Annuity until Age 60 (or reduced Annual Allowance at 50); or
  2.  Transfer Value.
... Neither of which I had released with the intention of selecting.  I joined in '96, and met all the other prerequisites to start drawing the pension now.  Where was the option to start collecting my Unreduced Annuity?!!  ???

Having already released, you can likely imagine the panic and stress my wife and I suffered through all weekend as we wondered what had gone wrong that was preventing us from collecting my pension now, and the self-doubt that started creeping in making us wonder if we had miscalculated something perhaps screwing ourselves out of the immediate annuity. 

A quick phone call to the federal pension office got it straightened out this morning.  Their system requires an override code to approve IE20 pensions.  Unfortunately that code was not initially applied to my file, but it's since been fixed and a new pension assessment was emailed to us by 10:00am.

<Whew> Big relief... now the waiting game for the cheques to start arriving.  By Christmas maybe?  :-\

Glad to hear it turned out ok for you!  I have to say reading that my heart sank, but then it came back again lol

 

[mariomike]

... now the waiting game for the cheques to start arriving.  By Christmas maybe?  :-\

Maybe,
Pension and Severance Wait Time 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/120030.50.html
3 pages.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Perhaps someone on here could enlighten me.  I am currently in the process of redressing my TOS (apparently someone else here on the wing had the same problem and was successful in their redress).

22 May 1996 (Joined, placed on LWOP)
01 June 1996 (LWOP ceases, career kicks off)

Sometime in 2012/2013 I signed my IPS.  This decision was based on the information provided to me, as well as information I gleaned from reading the pension manual and online pension stuff (official sites).
I was told and all indications from everything I read was that I would NOT be placed on the new TOS based on the fact that I had 10 years of service prior to Mar 2007, and I would remain under the old rules.

Now I find out that I have been indeed placed on the new TOS, which means I can’t release until I complete my 25.  I have spoken with the pension office and they made mention of having to sign a grandfather clause, stating that I was willing to remain under the old plan.  This is the first I have heard of such a thing, and really why even offer that as an option?  I know it wasn’t offered/mentioned when I was weighing the pros and cons on what to do.

Even now on the pension website there is a scenario that matches my situation    https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/fac-caf/act/rnsrgm/scnr-eng.html#s6  (Scenario 6), so I am at a loss as to why I was placed on the new plan.

I have engaged my COC, and am pressing on with a grievance.  I’m just wondering if anyone has any information on this “grandfather clause acceptance option”.