Forces struggling to recruit...

[dapaterson]

Old Sweat:  When we downsized in the mid 90s we got rid of most of the folks that co-ordinated intake - as always, in a downsizing, fire the people responsible for planning.  Then, in the latest recuriting binge ("Everyone gets in within a month or you get a free toaster!") no thought at all was given to scheduling - so in certain trades we brought in 3 years worth of intake in a few months - with lack DP1 schoolhouse capacity meaning two year waits for training.

Which leads into the topic of wrong trades.  Yes, MedTech, there is recruiting into the "wrong trades".  If a trade is green, with lots of folks going through DP1 training, with healthy promotion rates, and the schools at max capacity, increasing intake into that trade is Stupid.  It's a mistake.  It's the Wrong Trade.  It leads to dissatisfaction for the new recruit, and a lot of wasted time for the CF - we have people releasing at the end of their BE who haven't completed their DP1 training.  Similarly, bringing someone into a skilled trade who barely makes the grade based on their initial tests is putting them into the wrong trade - guess what, odds are good that he/she will flunk out, wasting that training slot and further slowing production of personnel.  The current "One month or a toaster!" philosophy is hurting the skilled trades with sub-standard recruits, leading to increased attrition on DP1 courses, further exacerbating the problems - we're wasting training slots on pers who are not completing training.  Recruit the right person for the right trade at the right time.

Finally, the HR researchers do much more than just "ask passers by in the NDHQ concourse".  Your baseless attacks on their professionalism is somewhat surreal - "If they do surveys, why wasn't I told?" is ridiculous - what need to know do you have?  What job in CFRG or in CMP do you hold that requires you to read, analyze, assess and action those results?  DND/CF produce thousands of studies in different areas; no one is on the distribution list for all of them (nor could they be - not enough hours in the day).    But if you do wish to start reading in, you can look at reports on the CMP intranet site - go to DMPSC under DGMP, and start reading documents like the CF Pers Management Report, or go to the DMPORA site and start reading their reports.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Excellent point, I overlooked that.
When someone is an idiot an beyond redemption punt them from the CF.
When a recruit is a total bag of crap and not going to benefit the CF kick them off course.  Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality. 

I agree.Having worked at a school and now posted to a regiment I see the product that was PUSHED when it should have been kicked out.Keeping these people doesnt benifit the regiment.They are so obsessed with numbers they fail to realise they are paying 50 grand a year for the past 5 years for a useless soldier (who is now a cpl,pte's look up to)who has been removed from the past two tours,and serves no purpose.

Also on that some of these useless POS are getting the career courses,putting them ahead of their peer's who due to their usefulness have been frequently deployed.

We have to focus quality over quanity.Or else we end up with useless Mcpls in another 2-3 years,and further down the road snr nco's.Lets face it career courses are getting pretty freakion slack...anyone remember the old 6A?Compare that to the patrol commander.

 

[apache2001]

Recuiting is everywhere and all the time.  It may start when a kid starts saluting a soldier on the road, someone reads good news about the CF, a good movie, in school or at home.  It also has to do with your values as a Canadian.  "Patriotism", "Serving the Public"... etc.

It didn't take me a lot of recruiting effort to get my application in 2001.  It was personal.  I wanted to thank Canada so I'm focused that serving in the forces would be the best step to achieve my goal. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I wonder how many potential recruits do the same thing....


Sick of slow service, customers walk

VIRGINIA GALT
Globe and Mail Update

August 26, 2008 at 4:28 PM EDT

Canadian consumers are so tired of waiting … in bank lineups, in grocery stores, in department stores for service, that most – at some point – have walked out without completing their business, according to a survey released Tuesday.

“Canadian consumers are abandoning their shopping carts, delaying purchases and leaving stores, public transit stops and restaurants in significant numbers,” marketing research firm, Maritz Research Canada, said in releasing the results of an online poll of more than 1,300 adult Canadians.

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080826.wwaiting0826/BNStory/Business/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp

 

[JayJay144]

Interesting point about the line up editorial.

        Keeping in mind I'm going through the application process ; medical and interview on wednesday  I've found the recruiting centre in Ottawa to be quite busy this summer during the times I was phoning and keeping on top of things. My first aptitude test didn't go very well as I wanted at least infantry (Reg) so I patiently waited a few more weeks. It was hard but the extra time to try and re-learn math was worth it. I qualified for what I listed; infantry, sig ops and combat engineer this time around. (Thiking hard about number 3.) I was sure to call at least once a week and would try to talk with them a little bit. It seems there are many people who are at least interested in the forces and thats good to see. possibly because of the campaign to promote Red Fridays.

        I'm 23 years old, hard working individual, I suppose you can say I'm conservative although I don't like to be branded.  I've had a chance to observe people's personal politics in my growing up. It seems the whole anti-war thing is almost a mental illness in a way. Or more so that it's just a phase that people go through. I think more and more people are realizing that  war and politics are an uneven mix but it's the men and women caught in between that really matter. They are just people like the rest of us after all. I feel It's important to show solidarity even if it's subtle.

I wouldn't be too worried about staffing problems. People will decide on their own time whether to join or even just think about it. I myself have had the itch for a while and now I want to pick up the ball and run with it. I'm up for the challenge because I feel that you never know if you don't attempt it. It takes time to actually get up the courage. I personally regret not joining the reserves when I was in highschool but I also think the extra time to mature has also been positive too.

Regards, 

Jordan

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Most urban centres with the highest populations have zero regular force presence in the community. The militia armouries are the traditional connection between the community and Canada's Army. The private sector has it figured out: sales success is all about 'location, location, location'. Why not treat this war like the major conflict it really is and, like WW1 and 2, mobilize a few reserve units across the country, staff them up with regulars and recruit and train locally like hell (using modern marketing techniques) so that 'your local unit can go defeat the Taliban'? I dunno, call it the '100 mile' solution or something - act locally, soldier globally.

This has been thought of before - in another context.  One reason why it is not and will not be done is the spectre of a sub-unit - all from one local area - taking mass casualties.  The "optics" of dozens of KIA and WIA returning to the same community is not something that the CF could entertain in the modern media age.

Despite the mythology, we have never really recruited and deployed from local locations.  By the time most units entered combat in the Second World War, for instance, they were comprised of soldiers from across Canada (and had had 2+ years "work up training", but that's another issue).

A trip to the US to learn from our counterparts would give us a fairly good idea on how to more effectively recruit and retain. Then return to infuse these ideas into the changing system.

This is not always a good idea.  The US caters to a different demographic and has significantly different personnel requirements than the CF.  Moreover, all Canadian Government advertising must be approved by Treasury Board, which controls both funding and content.  The CF may not always get what it wants in the way of "aggressive" US-style ads, particularly if those ads conflict with the messaging the government of the day is trying to control.

 

[George Wallace]

This has been thought of before - in another context.  One reason why it is not and will not be done is the spectre of a sub-unit - all from one local area - taking mass casualties.  The "optics" of dozens of KIA and WIA returning to the same community is not something that the CF could entertain in the modern media age.

Despite the mythology, we have never really recruited and deployed from local locations.  By the time most units entered combat in the Second World War, for instance, they were comprised of soldiers from across Canada (and had had 2+ years "work up training", but that's another issue).

I can see your point with the first paragraph and agree with it in principal.  However, if we were to combine it with what you have said in the second paragraph, it looks like a fairly good idea.  Not everyone being recruited will want the Trades offered by that unit, and would be transferred to another location for training.  Yes, the bulk of that unit will have "local roots", but in this day of age, and the mobility of our workforce/population, transfers can be facilitated.

Currently many Reserve Units are in fact nothing more than adhoc Recruit Training Cells of the Regular Force.  The amounts of Recruits that a Reserve Unit bring in and train from BMQ through SQ and Trades Training, only to see them CT to the Regular Force is in some cases near 50%.  That being said; why not make it official.  Stand them up or put a cadre on Class B/Class C to recruit and train using the Depot System of "Old" to process both Reservists for their Unit, and Regular Force for the Regs.  This will guarantee that both Reservist and Regular Force pers are getting identical training, and facilitate the amalgamation of Reservists into Task Forces on Deployments.

This may help clean out the current problems of "too few instructors" and "too many people sitting in PAT/PRETC/etc platoons" in Borden and elsewhere. 

 

[kratz]

...Currently many Reserve Units are in fact nothing more than adhoc Recruit Training Cells of the Regular Force.   The amounts of Recruits that a Reserve Unit bring in and train from BMQ through SQ and Trades Training, only to see them CT to the Regular Force is in some cases near 50%.  That being said; why not make it official.  Stand them up or put a cadre on Class B/Class C to recruit and train using the Depot System of "Old" to process both Reservists for their Unit, and Regular Force for the Regs.  This will guarantee that both Reservist and Regular Force pers are getting identical training, and facilitate the amalgamation of Reservists into Task Forces on Deployments.

This may help clean out the current problems of "too few instructors" and "too many people sitting in PAT/PRETC/etc platoons" in Borden and elsewhere. 

I know the concept of formalizing what is essentially occurring now in Reserve Units has been looked into since 2000. I am not aware of the outcome of those discussions, but the idea holds enough merit that higher ups are interested in reviewing the idea.  I appreciate some of the benefits of the idea, but what are the drawbacks that would stop this idea from moving forward?

 

[dapaterson]

Currently many Reserve Units are in fact nothing more than adhoc Recruit Training Cells of the Regular Force.  The amounts of Recruits that a Reserve Unit bring in and train from BMQ through SQ and Trades Training, only to see them CT to the Regular Force is in some cases near 50%. 

In an average year (over the past 4) roughly 2.5% of parading reservists have CT'd to the Reg force, with only 4/10 of those staying in trade.  The numbers are nowhere near 50% for any unit.

 

[tomahawk6]

I wonder if bonus' were offered if that would help both in attracting recruits but also in retention ?

 

[armyvern]

I wonder if bonus' were offered if that would help both in attracting recruits but also in retention ?

Well, they seemed to help with pilot retention a few years back.

I know one thing that would also help with retention, but - of course - would create a shitstorm of controversy -- a simple statement really "No. VR not accepted. You signed a contract to serve, you're honouring it."  :-X

 

[gun runner]

I always thought that you didnt join the military for the paycheques..but" to see the world,meet new and interesting people,and"...you know how that sentence ends. So now we are in the next century, and the job is a little different, not by much, but still.. and then we come to the wages! This is the only reason why we cannot keep the boots filled. we cannot match the money made by civillians in similar occupations and therefore lose the newbies to those industries instead of serving their country. This has always been and will always be a problem for the forces. The money has to be the incentive to keep up the ranks. Ubique

 

[aesop081]

Money doesnt keep people in. I'm in a very well paid MOC and we have very high attrition. More money wont change that.

 

[Celticgirl]

I'm in a very well paid MOC and we have very high attrition.

What is the problem with your MOC? High stress?

I know one thing that would also help with retention, but - of course - would create a shitstorm of controversy -- a simple statement really "No. VR not accepted. You signed a contract to serve, you're honouring it."  :-X

Sounds a lot like a movie I saw recently: "Stop Loss".

 

[aesop081]

What is the problem with your MOC?

High OP tempo combined with 80% of the trade being at/beyond 20 years of service.

 

[Celticgirl]

High OP tempo combined with 80% of the trade being at/beyond 20 years of service.

Well, I guess that would make it a very "red" trade, wouldn't it? More money might well be an incentive for new recruits if they are on the fence about their choices.

 

[aesop081]

More money might well be an incentive for new recruits if they are on the fence about their choices.

We will find out soon. The first direct-entry candidates for my trade should be recruited later this year.

 

[Occam]

Money doesnt keep people in. I'm in a very well paid MOC and we have very high attrition. More money wont change that.

Yes - you're in a very well paid MOC which has high attrition.  An MOC which is a remuster trade, which means the trade suffers from a high average years of service (YOS) because people already have a fair number of years in when they reach career status.  That leads to a higher percentage of members having the latitude to pull the plug much more easily than other trades which aren't remuster MOCs.  Are you that certain that the offer of a retention bonus combined with obligatory service wouldn't lead to at least some personnel sticking around a little longer?

The CF is going to have to realize that members in highly skilled trades are being remunerated far better on civvie street than in the CF, and that while service to the country is a noble calling, a CD doesn't put food on the table nor a roof over the head of one's family.

 

[aesop081]

 Are you that certain that the offer of a retention bonus combined with obligatory service wouldn't lead to at least some personnel sticking around a little longer?

I have seen a number of them leave from my unit alone. Money wasnt going to keep them in.

 

[Occam]

I have seen a number of them leave from my unit alone. Money wasnt going to keep them in.

In any given group of people, you're going to find a number of them that are going to pull the plug regardless.  The retention bonus isn't targeted at them - it's targeted at the people who would like to continue to serve, but are leaning towards release and greener financial pastures.