Filming/sharing videos of PW war crime? (split from Ukraine - Superthread)

[Altair]

So open question.

Seeing a lot of videos of Russian POWs. I posted one, which I think was more "okay" since it was civilians and it was just the soldier speaking to his mother, but you can easily find others with Ukrainian military being more aggressive with their questioning.

War crime or no?

 

[Czech_pivo]

So open question.

Seeing a lot of videos of Russian POWs. I posted one, which I think was more "okay" since it was civilians and it was just the soldier speaking to his mother, but you can easily find others with Ukrainian military being more aggressive with their questioning.

War crime or no?

The videoing of them is considered a 'war crime' under the GC. Questioning, nope no issue with that, 'aggressive' could be an issue if violence or threats of violence are directed at them but not tone of voice.

An argument possibly could be made that the videoing of them is a manner in which to let their countrymen/family know that they are alive and at that point in time, ok. The RC would have the responsibility to talk with each and every one of them to gather their personal information to pass along to the Russians and allow them to write/convey some personal message back to family back home. But this would be the norms when a declaration of war has been declared. I don't know (and I'm sure that others on here have vasy more knowledge) if the RC will actually get involvement in any manner at all in terms of prisoners captured by either side.

 

[Altair]

The videoing of them is considered a 'war crime' under the GC. Questioning, nope no issue with that, 'aggressive' could be an issue if violence or threats of violence are directed at them but not tone of voice.

An argument possibly could be made that the videoing of them is a manner in which to let their countrymen/family know that they are alive and at that point in time, ok. The RC would have the responsibility to talk with each and every one of them to gather their personal information to pass along to the Russians and allow them to write/convey some personal message back to family back home. But this would be the norms when a declaration of war has been declared. I don't know (and I'm sure that others on here have vasy more knowledge) if the RC will actually get involvement in any manner at all in terms of prisoners captured by either side.

Are civilians subject to the GC in the same way soldiers/nations are?

 

[WLSC]

Are civilians subject to the GC in the same way soldiers/nations are?

If I remember well, yes if they are recognize as a legitimate organisation i.e.: FFI in France in WW2.

 

[KevinB]

Arguments have been presented that since Russia didn't declare War on the Ukraine - that Russian forces could be seen as illegal combatants.
I tend to think that is pushing it, but their SOF etc who have been caught operating in UKR clothing could very easily be shot, as they don't get the same protections under the LOAC.

All in all, the UKR at least publicly have been treating the RU Forces quite well considering...

 

[Altair]

If I remember well, yes if they are recognize as a legitimate organisation i.e.: FFI in France in WW2.

So the Ukrainian territorial defense force cannot be doing this, or else its a war crime. Seen.

 

[Altair]

Arguments have been presented that since Russia didn't declare War on the Ukraine - that Russian forces could be seen as illegal combatants.
I tend to think that is pushing it, but their SOF etc who have been caught operating in UKR clothing could very easily be shot, as they don't get the same protections under the LOAC.

That's pretty shady logic. The USA didn't exactly declare war on Afghanistan or Iraq.

All in all, the UKR at least publicly have been treating the RU Forces quite well considering...

True, but I'm trying to figure out if Russian POWs on tiktok is a war crime or not.

What a weird sentence.

 

[WLSC]

So the Ukrainian territorial defense force cannot be doing this, or else its a war crime. Seen.

After that, it's to a tribunal to determine if they should have known etc, etc, etc...

 

[Altair]

After that, it's to a tribunal to determine if they should have known etc, etc, etc...

But on the face of it, not on.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

But on the face of it, not on.

Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.

Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been released. If this is the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.

Russia has a list of documented war crimes ranging in severity that should see most of their commanders and leaders on the end of a rope by the end of this.

In the end, video taped conscripts spilling their life story on video is a scratch on the paint job, as opposed to thermobaric bombing civilians, looting, and murdering the wounded.

 

[WLSC]

Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.

Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been released. If this is the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.

Russia has a list of documented war crimes ranging in severity that should see most of their commanders and leaders on the end of a rope by the end of this.

In the end, video taped conscripts spilling their life story on video is a scratch on the paint job, as opposed to thermobaric bombing civilians, looting, and murdering the wounded.

Absolutely. Light slap on the fingers IMO

 

[Altair]

Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.

Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been release. If thisbis the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.

Russia has a list of documented war crimes ranging in severity that should see most of their commanders and leaders on the end of a rope by the end of this.

In the end, video taped conscripts spilling their life story on video is a scratch on the paint job, as opposed to thermobaric bombing civilians, looting, and murdering the wounded.

Listen, I have not once, not once, said what Russia is doing is acceptable. I limited my arcs here as to whether what I'm seeing on Tictok, telegram, twitter, is a war crime or not.

Purely objective, fact based. As soldiers, we need to respect the LOAC, the GC, regardless of what the enemy does. If the soldier you have just been fighting was using human shields, raping and murdering civilians, shooting at medics, do we get to turn a blind eye to the GC and LOAC and do what we please, simply justifying it by saying we are still better than they? Do we deny them first aid? Do we film them and post their images online?

No.

So while I'm a firm Ukraine supporter here, if this is a WC, I will call it out as such.

 

[KevinB]

Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.

Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been released. If this is the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.

Russia has a list of documented war crimes ranging in severity that should see most of their commanders and leaders on the end of a rope by the end of this.

In the end, video taped conscripts spilling their life story on video is a scratch on the paint job, as opposed to thermobaric bombing civilians, looting, and murdering the wounded.

Proportionality...

@FJAG can give an actually informed opinion, but my thoughts would be that UKR would argue that their 'crime' is one of necessity to spare further lives.

That's pretty shady logic. The USA didn't exactly declare war on Afghanistan or Iraq.

Agreed - Korean War was a "Police Action" etc - which is why I said shaky arguments.

True, but I'm trying to figure out if Russian POWs on tiktok is a war crime or not.

Guilty Act and Guilty Mind? Plus I suspect the ICC is busy with Russian violations that actually are utterly repugnant.

What a weird sentence.

You knew in Afghanistan or Iraq that running around in 'civilian clothes' (a la Man dress or similar) that you where not exactly going to get LOAC coverage (caveat you where not going to get LOAC treatment either in uniform...)

 

[KevinB]

@Altair the digital age has changed warfare (at least from the public perception) significantly.
There haven't been any recent changes to the various Conventions - I suspect that after this is said and done - that we will indeed see some changes done.

 

[Altair]

@Altair the digital age has changed warfare (at least from the public perception) significantly.
There haven't been any recent changes to the various Conventions - I suspect that after this is said and done - that we will indeed see some changes done.

You're not wrong, but the rules as written are still there and one cannot argue that they are outdated, one has to follow them.

 

[Mills Bomb]

Given the fact Ukraine is being invaded in a unjust war, I find it highly unlikely they will stop filming Russian POW's.

Their women and children are being shelled in these cities by the second largest military in the world, Putin is conquering their nation, they have only received limited assistance from NATO and will probably eventually lose the conflict after a lot of death and destruction unless a miraculous David and Goliath moment happens, are we really about to tell them "Hey Ukraine, I know you're on the brink of existing as a nation against a superpower, but you gotta play by the rules, no filming POW's in hopes of a Russian revolution that could end that war, that may be against the Geneva convention".

If it was the CAF different story, we would shut it down right away, but these are completely foreign states at war with each other and we're sitting it out and I'm just personally having trouble trying to apply our morals / Geneva convention to this given how absurd the entire thing is. The Ukrainians are just doing whatever it is they think will help them survive at this point.

 

[Altair]

Given the fact Ukraine is being invaded in a unjust war, I find it highly unlikely they will stop filming Russian POW's.

Their women and children are being shelled in these cities by the second largest military in the world, Putin is conquering their nation, they have only received limited assistance from NATO and will probably eventually lose the conflict after a lot of death and destruction unless a miraculous David and Goliath moment happens, are we really about to tell them "Hey Ukraine, I know you're on the brink of existing as a nation against a superpower, but you gotta play by the rules, no filming POW's in hopes of a Russian revolution that could end that war, that may be against the Geneva convention".

If it was the CAF different story, we would shut it down right away, but these are completely foreign states at war with each other and we're sitting it out and I'm just personally having trouble trying to apply our morals / Geneva convention to this given how absurd the entire thing is. The Ukrainians are just doing whatever it is they think will help them survive at this point.

2 things.

1. The revolution looked like is was going to happen regardless.

2. It never hurts to call out people, friends or foe, to follow the rules.

And its a relatively small thing they can do.

 

[Kirkhill]

Still doesn't make it right.

Calculated maybe, but not right.

Laws reflect and codify ethics and morality.

Ethics and morality are more important than adherence to the law.

Laws are changed. That is why we have Parliament.

 

[Altair]

Laws reflect and codify ethics and morality.

Ethics and morality are more important than adherence to the law.

Laws are changed. That is why we have Parliament.

Ill be sure to try this with the police should i ever have a run in with them

 

[HiTechComms]

Laws reflect and codify ethics and morality.

Ethics and morality are more important than adherence to the law.

Laws are changed. That is why we have Parliament.

Until a unilateral decision is made through OIC or under pretext of an Emergency.

Then again its fine in some nations according to Ethics, morals to throw gay people to be thrown off building or adulatory to be punished by stoning.

Both have a huge problematic scope. Culture, History and social norms seem to dictate everything.