DND may be shopping for new subs, sources say

[GAP]

DND may be shopping for new subs, sources say
By MURRAY BREWSTER  The Canadian Press Wednesday, October 10, 2007 – Page A9
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OTTAWA -- The Defence Minister's office recently requested a briefing on how long it would take to introduce new submarines - a move that could set the stage for the replacement of the military's troubled Victoria-class boats, defence sources have told The Canadian Press.

At the same time, a key refit contract involving the compressed-air system aboard HMCS Victoria has been put on hold, which would leave the warship unable to fire torpedoes.

Both actions raise questions about the future of the four glitch-plagued submarines that were purchased from Britain in 1998 under the former Liberal government and have yet to reach full operational status.

In the briefing, which was reportedly delivered by senior officials last week to Ward Elcock, Defence Minister Peter MacKay's new deputy, the government was told it would take six years to bring new submarines completely up to snuff, starting from the moment of contract signing.

A second defence source said a more conservative estimate of the timeline would be up to eight years.

A spokesman for Mr. MacKay declined to give details of the briefing.

"The minister has no comment on the substance of briefings, which are often sensitive in nature," press secretary Jay Paxton said. "The minister does view these subs as an important strategic asset for Canada."

The Harper government has been casting around for ways to bolster the country's sovereignty over the Arctic. The issue of the Far North is expected to figure prominently in next week's Throne Speech.
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[Colin Parkinson]

Is the 212/214 production line in Germany still running?

 

[geo]

At a time when the CF is looking to replace it's Destroyers, Oilers & Supply ships + upgrade it's Frigates, is this the time to look at new subs?

This has the makings of another Feast & Famine...

Short term scramble to build a ton of ships followed by.... NOTHING.

 

[COBRA-6]

Inquiries into AIP subs is not surprising with the CPC's focus on the arctic...

 

[Sea Dragon]

Geo; I shudder at the thought of feast or famine.  However, might this not be the time to start asking the questions, at least?  If it's 8 years (then add in further fudge factors), then starting the intellectual ball rolling might be a sign that ongoing procurement is a possibility.  Of course, that may just be wishful thinking.

 

[geo]

Thinking about this,
the CF was poking around the used MBTs some 2 years before we got together with the Dutch for their Leo2 A4s

It's a staff check...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Better to get the leg work done now then wait til later.

 

[geo]

these stories sometimes start when someone high up asks the question

"what would it take to get / do.........................."
and then the staff weenies go to work running around to fill the possibly silly muse

 

[Navy_Blue]

I am speaking with a limited view, time wise and experience.  I'm in the phase of my course where we are tracing and crawling in every nook and cranny on the Boat.  I also worked in a limited manner maintaining Windsor through the summer as well.  

In my opinion we have max 10 years of service life on the Vic's regardless of how much time they spend on the lift.  If we were to start looking at mothballing 1 possibly 2 boats you might squeak another 2 years.  I think I could find a few in the MSE world that would think that is optimistic too.  From the people I have met in the MOG allot are optimistic and feel the Vic's could  be (are) good boats.

I agree with Ex.  Get the mind numbing paper work out of the way.  In that time we should have 4 or 5 years of sailing time on at least 2 boats and the makings of an experienced Sub community again.  Vic's can act as inshore patrol and training platforms and our people can get back to sneaking up on the yanks and scaring the crap out of them  ;D.  I would love to see us get a Type 214.  Could be very cool and from an electrical point of view amazing.

From a political perspective the Conservatives can't loose.  "Yeah we tried our best. really we did!  Those darn Liberals got us in quite a mess.  I think we owe it to our sailors and our country to get the best equipment possible."  At that point we have an election, the Liberals (god help us if its NDP) win and cancel the contract  :warstory:

Anyways that's my 2 cents

Cheers

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Geo; I shudder at the thought of feast or famine.  However, might this not be the time to start asking the questions, at least?  If it's 8 years (then add in further fudge factors), then starting the intellectual ball rolling might be a sign that ongoing procurement is a possibility.  Of course, that may just be wishful thinking.

When I joined the Navy in 1977 I remember being in a big briefing on the CPF program for all of us junior officers....it was very rudimentary at that stage and not called the CPF but those ships did not start down the slipways until the early nineties! It takes a long time to develop these programs with the way we do business...so better start planning now.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Does anyone think with the possibility of another election on the horizon that the Conservatives could be thinking of terminating the sub program to try to earn votes?  Which could push them into a majority?

Terminate the current program or downsize it, and try to get boats that are capable of patrolling the arctic...


The Upholders are good boats, almost a decade of negative press coverage is burned into the minds of many, and there is no way of getting rid of the negativity associated with the submarines.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Does anyone think with the possibility of another election on the horizon that the Conservatives could be thinking of terminating the sub program to try to earn votes?  Which could push them into a majority?

Terminate the current program or downsize it, and try to get boats that are capable of patrolling the arctic...


The Upholders are good boats, almost a decade of negative press coverage is burned into the minds of many, and there is no way of getting rid of the negativity associated with the submarines.

I don't think your average Canadian who lives in Ontario even knows we have a Navy never mind submarines. this isn't a burning issue in the GTA where they need to win...nor in Quebec where they also need to win. My read would be that they are looking to the future and whether to cut our losses now. As someone else mentioned this will be a staff check to check out feasibility.

 

[eerickso]

                                           Laid down Launched Commissioned
Italy S526 Salvatore Todaro July 3, 1999 November 6, 2003 March 29, 2006
Italy S527 Sciré May 27, 2000 December 18, 2004 February 19, 2007

From Wikipedia, according to this we could have submariners sailing in four years?

This is my take:
The conventional diesel electric submarine is the Swiss mechanical watch of the submarine business. Should we just keep on our path of idiocy?

Submerged for 3 weeks without snorkeling. Hmmm this sounds good to me?

 

[geo]

While submarines are nice, new ones even better..... the Canadian Navy is in dire need of other basic staples.

Protecteur & Preserver are pert well clapped out and need to be replaced.
A new RORO cargo ship would also be essential - get us off our dependency for old Soviet cargo ships (MV Kate anyone)
Our tribal class DDHs are also pert well clapped out and need to be replaced.

Soooo..... how many subs do you want with your order?

 

[eerickso]

Four and then the only thing left to worry about are the destroyers. Other businesses manage to transport material without being held ransom? We dont have any DDHs.

 

[TCBF]

My prediction:  No new subs during a minority government.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

Replace subs with "anything"...

 

[eerickso]

I think Harper wants to give Dion a throne speech he can choke on!!! ;D

 

[Stoker]

Cut our losses and send the crews back to the fleet, we can use them.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Cut our losses and send the crews back to the fleet, we can use them.

And lose our subsurface capability? Not a smart plan

Four and then the only thing left to worry about are the destroyers. Other businesses manage to transport material without being held ransom? We dont have any DDHs.

What do you call the 280s? look at their ball caps sometime in the dockyard