Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[dimsum]

The issue we have with career managers is that are always people who play the system to get what they want on the backs of others.

To confirm, you're saying the issue is the member playing those cards, not the CMs themselves, right?

 

[Westcoast80]

I agree a navy member who bought a home in 2002 would not have the same financial hardships as a new member. Thier spouse would have plenty of time to work a stable job, have a low mortgage at this point in thier career, and probably have a built in support system.

 

[Underway]

Maybe, but I have noticed a tendancy (including amongst NCO who need to be inspired by individuals by those who have commissioned and achieved success) to see that Maj or LCol with with two clasps and ask what he did to fail. Meanwhile, in response to my question as to whether the naval warfare officer badge communicates anything that cannot be inferred between an individual’s rank and the sea service badge over the opposite pocket:

The addition of these badges mirrors the US, UK, RAN and other commonwealth countries. If there is a fault in it is perhaps perception, or that we don't have naval air integrated into the RCN.

The CAF’s peacock badges & bling obsession has been predominantly weighted to maximize occupational & environmental distinction for officers, where in reality this effort should be weighted to maximize distinction for the junior ranks. We also want a little bit of that distinctiveness on the people in the jobs that privates, sailors, and corporals should be aspiring toward.

May I introduce you to the French and Americans? We are hardly bling obsessed. It's not even close. The fact that the CAF is after decades of not recognizing anything is trying to recognize things is a good sign (SSE for example). As for Jr Rank's distinctiveness, they wear their trade badges. Naval Officers do not get trade badges (though Log is easy enough with their cap badge).

I think the fact that it happens to be officers irritates the crap out of a lot of people and they can't get past that to judge things on their own merit.

But we now have a badge that allows one to quickly identify those NWO who have followed the “proper” career path and to distinguish them above that rare naval engineer with a pretty exceptional career path or the Coxn who CFRed. The commander with two clasps and formerly filled the senior appointment on a coast is more likely to be assessed as a turd who could not even check the obligatory boxes when met by the newest crop of sailors and A/SLt.

This matches the US, UK and other commonwealth initiatives. The only difference is perhaps that they have either naval air integrated into the navy or in the US case they are all SWO and not all of them achieve the qualification (due to branching career paths). As far as Coxn who CFR'd there are plenty of techs who CFR to engineering all the time with a lot of sea days when they reach PO1 or CPO2. It's more common than you think.

The only one who judges what a "proper" career path is, is the trade themselves, and that's quickly discarded by most when you've been in for a bit.

Do we need it? No. Is it worth this irritation now that it exists? No.

 

[KevinB]

May I introduce you to the French and Americans? We are hardly bling obsessed. It's not even close.

When you pay your troops crap, the bling helps...
Compare the US Army
Army Pay Chart & Army Base Pay – Active Duty

TO Canadian Armed Forces

Pay rates for non-commissioned members - Canada.ca

Pay rates for Non-Commissioned Members in the Canadian Armed Forces.

www.canada.ca

 

[Underway]

Officers are pretty equivalent with the exchange rate. The NCM rates are criminal though. I know there are other benefits like on base accommodation etc.. but wow, that's not the greatest.

Brings me back to my assessment of allowing non-citizens to join the CAF.

 

[KevinB]

Officers are pretty equivalent with the exchange rate. The NCM rates are criminal though. I know there are other benefits like on base accommodation etc.. but wow, that's not the greatest.

Brings me back to my assessment of allowing non-citizens to join the CAF.

One of my buddies retired as a SGM from the CAG, even with his assaulter allowance etc I thought his pay rate was criminal.
That said he did get a very impressive reengagement bonus during GWOT.

 

[dimsum]

When you pay your troops crap, the bling helps...
Compare the US Army
Army Pay Chart & Army Base Pay – Active Duty

TO Canadian Armed Forces

Pay rates for non-commissioned members - Canada.ca

Pay rates for Non-Commissioned Members in the Canadian Armed Forces.

www.canada.ca

I had a great "discussion" on CAF Reddit with others who were convinced that with the allowances, etc that US NCMs were paid better than CAF NCMs.

I pretty much just gave up arguing.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

One very important thing to keep in mind when looking at the US military pay scales is the Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH). A US Army soldier who lives "on post" is not paying for their house (their BAH goes to that). If they live off-post they receive the BAH which varies by rank, location and whether they have dependents or not. An E1 with dependents living off-post at Fort Benning receives 1,305 USD per month in BAH while an O6 receives 1,920. An E1 with dependents living off-post in Seattle receives 2,436 USD a month. So factor that into comparison.

This system accommodates the very different housing costs of a far-flung military while still having compensation linked with rank.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

One very important thing to keep in mind when looking at the US military pay scales is the Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH). A US Army soldier who lives "on post" is not paying for their house (their BAH goes to that). If they live off-post they receive the BAH which varies by rank, location and whether they have dependents or not. An E1 with dependents living off-post at Fort Benning receives 1,305 USD per month in BAH while an O6 receives 1,920. An E1 with dependents living off-post in Seattle receives 2,436 USD a month. So factor that into comparison.

This system accommodates the very different housing costs of a far-flung military while still having compensation linked with rank.

BAH is probably what keeps a lot of U.S. service members from being below the poverty line. Add in the fact that a lot of their bases have adequate (in numbers, quality may vary) housing for single members, thus not requiring a lot of RHUs or off-Post living for single personnel, the system works out swimmingly for the member and the service.

Here in the CAF, we expect the same level of adaptability because "service before self", while hoping and wishing CAF members will behave like PS employees wearing green.

I would love to see a similar system of BAH for CAF members. It would alleviate so many issues IRT housing.

 

[Underway]

BAH is probably what keeps a lot of U.S. service members from being below the poverty line. Add in the fact that a lot of their bases have adequate (in numbers, quality may vary) housing for single members, thus not requiring a lot of RHUs or off-Post living for single personnel, the system works out swimmingly for the member and the service.

Here in the CAF, we expect the same level of adaptability because "service before self", while hoping and wishing CAF members will behave like PS employees wearing green.

I would love to see a similar system of BAH for CAF members. It would alleviate so many issues IRT housing.

How is BAH different the PLD? Seems to me PLD is an attempt at an equivalent allowance.

 

[dimsum]

How is BAH different the PLD? Seems to me PLD is an attempt at an equivalent allowance.

I think (could be wrong) that BAH is also rank-dependent.

I recall that a while back, if you lived in their version of the Qs, you pay different rates depending on rank. They also had different housing for Jr NCMs, Snr NCMs, Officers, and GOFOs. But, in some places where Officers and NCMs live side by side (Fort Irwin being one), the Officer pays more for the same house.

 

[McG]

BAH is probably what keeps a lot of U.S. service members from being below the poverty line. Add in the fact that a lot of their bases have adequate (in numbers, quality may vary) housing for single members, thus not requiring a lot of RHUs or off-Post living for single personnel, the system works out swimmingly for the member and the service.

Here in the CAF, we expect the same level of adaptability because "service before self", while hoping and wishing CAF members will behave like PS employees wearing green.

We have published standards of for permanent quarters and I have not seen a single base where the existing single quarters meet that standard. Most permanent singles quarters (even the "nice" ones) only meet the standard of transient quarters. Yet, the major living quarters construction projects have been for newer, fancier transient quarters and not to build the minimum adequate permanent quarters. I mean we would have more transient quarters if we could take all current occupants of sub-standard “permanent” accommodations and move them into something that is actually to standard, but then the same people who prioritize creating new bling for themselves would have to stay in a room a little more rustic that that of a hotel when visiting another base.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

How is BAH different the PLD? Seems to me PLD is an attempt at an equivalent allowance.

BAH is everywhere. So when you look at the pay scales for US servicefolks you need to add in the BAH. PLD is not everywhere.

PLD tries to help out with high-cost areas, but the policy is clunky and uneven. You live one street on the wrong side of the line and no PLD. BAH has an assessment for pretty much every posting that they can have.

They also tie the BAH to rank, and on-post housing is by rank as well. This is because they have blistered out housing from pay but still make it part of the overall compensation where higher ranks are compensated , well, higher. Want a bigger house? Get promoted. The good news, though, is that they have a baseline where it is conceivable for a Pte clerk/Int Op equivalent posted to a major urban centre to be able to afford to live there - something that PLD fails to do (evenly).

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

To implement something like BAH for the CAF would be a major endeavor, but so is any other solution. I am not a compensation expert. I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn recently. I have been responsible recently for housing on a major base. I think we need to do something.

I think it is a mistake to take a "needs assessment" approach to "subsidized housing." We should do needs assessments when someone is in financial distress and we are looking at means to help them through that situation (I was responsible for that as well on a major garrison). Being able to pay for a reasonable level of housing should not be a cause of distress. It should be one of the major expenses that a family has, but it shouldn't put them into distress. So we should determine what a reasonable standard of housing is for our members by rank (assume that they have dependents) and work that into our compensation allowing for regional differences. So we would not be not "subsidizing" our people's housing. We would be compensating them to be able to live in the places where we send them. Perhaps that sounds like semantics.

Getting posted is stressful, but it shouldn't be a catastrophe.

What a BAH system might have issues with is coping with big jumps in the market. If prices stay relatively stable then its not a big deal, but if a market goes up 50% in a year then do you up the BAH for everyone, including the folks paying a mortgage based on the old market? Like I said, I am not a compensation expert, nor a real estate guru nor an economist.

 

[OldSolduer]

I think (could be wrong) that BAH is also rank-dependent.

I recall that a while back, if you lived in their version of the Qs, you pay different rates depending on rank. They also had different housing for Jr NCMs, Snr NCMs, Officers, and GOFOs. But, in some places where Officers and NCMs live side by side (Fort Irwin being one), the Officer pays more for the same house.

You are correct. As a MCpl I was posted to CFRS and was allowed to occupy a Q that was designated for a Snr NCO. About six months later it was legal for me to occupy it.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I think (could be wrong) that BAH is also rank-dependent.

I recall that a while back, if you lived in their version of the Qs, you pay different rates depending on rank. They also had different housing for Jr NCMs, Snr NCMs, Officers, and GOFOs. But, in some places where Officers and NCMs live side by side (Fort Irwin being one), the Officer pays more for the same house.

It does indeed vary by rank (I gave the range for one location). If you live on-post, though, your BAH pays for your house. So its not that the Capt is paying more out of their pocket than the Sgt if they nature of on-post housing means they have the same style of house. They wouldn't see their BAH if they live on-post.

 

[Quirky]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that assistance specifically for home ownership should ramp down eventually once you’ve attained a rank and salary that should be more able to support it. The hardest part is getting into the market. Once you start building equity, if equity losses on posting are compensated, that’s pretty fair and reasonable.

If our HEA was 100% coverage on the Purchase vs Sale price and untaxed I could care less about PLD and PMQ availability. Knowing that I won't lose money at the end, nevermind property tax etc, I would happily support the local economy and buy a house at each posting. This would also free up PMQ availability for those who choose to live closer to base or unable financially for whatever reason. This doesn't solve the current affordability problem but at least if I buy a house at $600k I know that if I sell at $480k in 5 years I won't be financially destroyed because the military needs me to hold down a chair at another unit.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hockey, golf, badminton, running, soccer, basketball etc the list goes on. No different than kit shop rep, general safety, or the other handful of useless secondary duties people use for points. At least sports takes skill.

Gen Safety (UGSO) is actually a fairly significant workload, so I’ve learned over the last 10 months. 663s, CF 98s and other reports/returns are part of that workload. So is SNIC Rep, COVID tracker…the list goes on.

Most of the work GSOs and Bldg Custodians do is behind the curtains but if they stopped doing their work, people would gripe I’d bet. Especially when VAC says “denied/no supporting documentation”…

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The RCAF does sort of distinguish folks by patches on flight suits. Qualified Flying Instructor, Instrument Check Pilot, etc.

I thought you were going to mention the Stu Pedidiot name tag…

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don’t want to see what happens to the national case load of grievances if the day comes where an opaque career manager decision can raise or lower a person’s pay earnings.

An MWO AES Op posted to Shearwater or Pat Bay who is a flyer, who gets promoted to CWO and posted to Comox or Greenwood definitely lose earnings.

They give up AIRCRA and PLD for a $3 pay raise going from Spec 1 MWO to Basic CWO…