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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

Colin Parkinson

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Had the release text said; "This would be nice to do if we had a perfect world, but i can't see us being able to do it, need advice on how to communicate this to the troops". then you know your dealing with leadership that cares.
 

Booter

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My point has always been illustrative rather than comparative. I'll take your word on the numbers - I've been out too long to argue them. No doubt it would be disruptive to backfill all the impacted members 24/7 for a couple of weeks. Rest days and perhaps annual leave messed up for sure. Maybe Fort Rose Marie in Ottawa and the divisional HQs get quieter for a few weeks. Wildly expensive. But if the 'corporate culture' and leadership is there, and that is what is necessary for the mental strength of the members and avoid longer term problems, they need to rise to the occasion. Flexibility and surge capacity are supposed to be a couple of the hallmarks of large deployed services; otherwise they are just a collection of smaller police departments in the same suit.
You have a ton of experience I’m being circular and difficult- I appreciate the example from the opp I find it very interesting.
 

lenaitch

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Had the release text said; "This would be nice to do if we had a perfect world, but i can't see us being able to do it, need advice on how to communicate this to the troops". then you know your dealing with leadership that cares.
Yup, or 'big ask - we need to figure out how to make it happen'. Or even better, after the fact; 'Supt Doyle has decided to take his career in a different direction'.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Good2Golf

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I'm hoping some with experience could expand on this.

Scrambling for aircraft in N.S. mass shooting, RCMP told to ‘pound sand’: official​



🤦🏻

I guess it turns out that in Canada, in-service primary SAR aircraft/helicopters don’t have FLIR sensors, since they normally search for warm things (humans)…#dndsarlogic

It also seems as though JRCC wasn’t prone to expediently thinking outside the this-is-how-we-do-SAR box. Some organizations conduct concurrent activities (like check with a FLIR-equipped unit, let’s say 423 Sqn in Shearwater, NS while linking real-time with the CAOC to prep any actions required to support an ACP/CFAAD request.
 

SeaKingTacco

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I'm hoping some with experience could expand on this.

Scrambling for aircraft in N.S. mass shooting, RCMP told to ‘pound sand’: official​



The CAF does not roll assets on a law enforcement situation, no matter how bad it is, without several very large legal checkmarks in the box. That is how the NDA works. The RCMP calling JRCC Halifax for help is probably the least good way getting military assistance in an active shooter situation.
 

lenaitch

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I'm actually kinda surprised SAR doesn't have IR. I would have thought it might be helpful looking for somebody bobbing in the water but what do I know. Flying low and slow enough to pick up reasonably useful heat signatures sounds like a bad idea if you are in an environment where somebody is shooting at just about anything.

Perhaps the other problem is the RCMP having only one rotary in the Maritimes and no Plan B when it is down for maintenance. I do recall reading about them finally getting a NS Natural Resources machine but understand there was comms problems.
 

Good2Golf

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I'm actually kinda surprised SAR doesn't have IR. I would have thought it might be helpful looking for somebody bobbing in the water but what do I know. Flying low and slow enough to pick up reasonably useful heat signatures sounds like a bad idea if you are in an environment where somebody is shooting at just about anything.

Perhaps the other problem is the RCMP having only one rotary in the Maritimes and no Plan B when it is down for maintenance. I do recall reading about them finally getting a NS Natural Resources machine but understand there was comms problems.
There were politics involved when the Cormorant was procured, that limited the available budget and FLIR, as useful as it would have been to rotary SAR, didn’t make the cut.

Kind of ironic that green and grey helicopters have FLIR, but most yellow don’t. (NB. the yellow Griffon’s do have FLIR I understand, but that’s because they’re a Griffon, and we’re allocated some of the FLIRs originally procured for the Green Griffon fleet.)
 

Halifax Tar

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I'm actually kinda surprised SAR doesn't have IR. I would have thought it might be helpful looking for somebody bobbing in the water but what do I know. Flying low and slow enough to pick up reasonably useful heat signatures sounds like a bad idea if you are in an environment where somebody is shooting at just about anything.

Me as well.
 

Eye In The Sky

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🤦🏻

I guess it turns out that in Canada, in-service primary SAR aircraft/helicopters don’t have FLIR sensors, since they normally search for warm things (humans)…#dndsarlogic

It also seems as though JRCC wasn’t prone to expediently thinking outside the this-is-how-we-do-SAR box. Some organizations conduct concurrent activities (like check with a FLIR-equipped unit, let’s say 423 Sqn in Shearwater, NS while linking real-time with the CAOC to prep any actions required to support an ACP/CFAAD request.

I would have called the other wing in NS; no offense to MH but in LRP we have the legs, altitude and a better EOIR, comms etc. We also do SAR secondary and hold Ready crews 24/7/365. I’m totally not surprised JRCC didn’t even think of Auroras; that’s actually a very embarrassing article for them.

Looking for people, doing veh follows, communicating…we are just better set up for it and lots of IMPACT operational experience still kicking around the fleet. We still practice “overland stuff”.
 
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Eye In The Sky

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I'm actually kinda surprised SAR doesn't have IR. I would have thought it might be helpful looking for somebody bobbing in the water but what do I know. Flying low and slow enough to pick up reasonably useful heat signatures sounds like a bad idea if you are in an environment where somebody is shooting at just about anything.

Perhaps the other problem is the RCMP having only one rotary in the Maritimes and no Plan B when it is down for maintenance. I do recall reading about them finally getting a NS Natural Resources machine but understand there was comms problems.

Using IR for a single person in the water…not so much help really (been there done that…unsuccessfully I’ll add).

There are lots of factors that come into play; temps, sea state, size of search area, time of day, weather.

I’ve done overland SAR looking with IR at night. Every camp fire, animal, etc is a potential contact. IR searches aren’t as easy as most people think they are.

Replacing all the big shiny lights on SAR aircraft with sensors is just as bad as having no sensors and all big shiny lights. Different searches demand different tools.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Just wanted to add a piece about JRCC; they know and deal with active shooter scenarios as readily as police depts deal with blue water SAR. “They don’t even know what they don’t know” kind of idea.

RCAF primary SAR assets do not have sensors; I’m not even sure if they have AIS let alone an EOIR turret. Sensor-assisted SAR is not something JRCC knows much about; our SAR Sqns are just starting to “learn sensors in SAR”.

What is too bad is that hands are tied so badly with policy and red tape between different departments that Canadians can’t even get aircraft like an Aurora, which would ultimately have been the best platform (for many reasons) airborne to protect them when they really really need it, and those planes are sitting on a ramp just a very short flying time away from where this was going down. Looking for a bad guy, locating a specific vehicle, doing a vehicle follow and reporting it all to a ground station…is pretty routine stuff after Iraq and Syria.

Our policy, systems and procedures failed. They failed that day. Collectively, “we” failed. Who is “we”? All the uniformed services paid for by tax dollars that can’t inter-operate inside our own borders when the SHTF. That kind of “we”.

* RCAF has done DS ops to other fed depts inside Canadian airspace and TTWs. I’ve got some of them in my logbook.
 
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daftandbarmy

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I assume no SOPs had been developed or rehearsed...


Scrambling for aircraft in N.S. mass shooting, RCMP told to 'pound sand': officials​

Log and audio transcripts show confusion around RCMP's request for aircraft assistance​



RCMP officers prepare to take a person into custody at a gas station in Enfield, N.S. on Sunday April 19, 2020. The gunman who killed 22 people was fatally shot by police at the gas station. (Tim Krochak/The Canadian Press)

Transcripts of calls between the RCMP and search and rescue officials in Halifax show an overall lack of understanding of what was required to have a military aircraft assist during the search for a gunman who killed 22 people in April 2020.

Log and audio transcripts obtained by The Canadian Press under an access to information request also reveal muddled advice from the military's Joint Rescue Coordination Centre, which was initially under the impression that it had adequately dealt with the RCMP's request for an aircraft equipped with infrared technology.

Before calling search and rescue, the Mounties had tried unsuccessfully to get an aircraft with sensors that could detect the heat signature of a human body, which they needed as they searched for the killer in the woods around Portapique, N.S., soon after the 13-hour rampage began on April 18, 2020.


 

Weinie

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I assume no SOPs had been developed or rehearsed...


Scrambling for aircraft in N.S. mass shooting, RCMP told to 'pound sand': officials​

Log and audio transcripts show confusion around RCMP's request for aircraft assistance​



RCMP officers prepare to take a person into custody at a gas station in Enfield, N.S. on Sunday April 19, 2020. The gunman who killed 22 people was fatally shot by police at the gas station. (Tim Krochak/The Canadian Press)

Transcripts of calls between the RCMP and search and rescue officials in Halifax show an overall lack of understanding of what was required to have a military aircraft assist during the search for a gunman who killed 22 people in April 2020.

Log and audio transcripts obtained by The Canadian Press under an access to information request also reveal muddled advice from the military's Joint Rescue Coordination Centre, which was initially under the impression that it had adequately dealt with the RCMP's request for an aircraft equipped with infrared technology.

Before calling search and rescue, the Mounties had tried unsuccessfully to get an aircraft with sensors that could detect the heat signature of a human body, which they needed as they searched for the killer in the woods around Portapique, N.S., soon after the 13-hour rampage began on April 18, 2020.


Once again, according to the CBC, the CAF are the "bad" guys.
 

Kat Stevens

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Isn’t there also the rule of common decency? Fuck the rules for five minutes, if we can help find/stop this fucker let’s do it. Sort the paperwork out later.
 

Dana381

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Isn’t there also the rule of common decency? Fuck the rules for five minutes, if we can help find/stop this fucker let’s do it. Sort the paperwork out later.

Really? In this day and age. The person giving the order, the guy who fueled the helicopter and all the crew are definitely fired immediately. If shit goes sideways and someone get hurt or killed those people would be looking at jail time.
 
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