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Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

Booter

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You would need an LEO with experience in these high level politically charged meetings.

Every serious crime/murder investigation I've been a part of records all meetings/briefings etc but I can't say for certain its SOP amongst the likes of Superintendents, Assistant and Deputy Commissioners, or the Commissioner of the RCMP herself.

What I can say with absolute certainty is that the recording having been made was in fact evidence and never should have been destroyed. Given this was the largest mass murder in Canadian history, and the conversation involved the senior most ranks of the RCMP there is absolutely no excuse or reasonable explanation as to why this recording was deleted. No brand new Constable oopsies, no "we didn't think the recording was relevant", no "reached its purge date per policy".

To me this is destruction of evidence, plain and simple. At the least, somebody should be fired. I'd prefer to see somebody charged, made an example of, and then dismissed.
There’s a switch over to internet based phones and teleconference systems. The ones I installed about a month ago- which is the future- records video calls and asks if you want to store them- it’s not normally done. Usually you delete them. It’s a default thing.

I believe the tech guy told me that they can pull it out of the data on the drive if they need to. But I didn’t know enough of what I was looking at.

As a practice they aren’t stored. Even my calls with ministry of justice or environment etc we go out of our way to ensure that no one is recording- because presently it’s not known how we’re going to
Store it- for what reasons- for what periods.

So presently- until the policy is sorted it’s not done.

These briefings- and the sensitive notes etc that come out of them are political beasts that are crafted by many hands. The conversations making the briefings are supposed to be open air so that you can have conversations.

You could make an argument that all conversations in a polticians office should be recorded. I think it’s a good idea. But it’s not presently a practice.

As an org the RCMP would be dragged kicking and screaming into this.

I agree in this case I would have held into it. For historical record,
 

Booter

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I should add- that common sense would dictate that there might need to be some exceptions on something like this. Especially if it’s a public servant. I’ll save my personal opinions on the love of bureaucracy I encounter.
 

FSTO

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David Herle had a great interview with Paul Palango who has been deep into the NS Shooting File. After listening to this, there is something very rotten in the heads of our institutions. The goal of our leaders is to ensure no shyte gets splattered on them while they leave the coal face folks to muddle on with no lessons learned retraining, piss poor equipment/tactics, and no real attempt to dive deeply into the issues as to why.

 

Booter

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I cannot fathom how the leadership of the Mounties can be so incompetent or uncaring.
They are simply following the example of those before them and the results of a system that rewards being obsessed with yourself.

In a new function, in a different stream I was sat down about “the game”. It’s very little about operational effectiveness
 

daftandbarmy

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JWR can attest to that.

I want to see a REAL Mountie as head of the RCMP.


canada rick GIF by South Park
 

brihard

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Functionally, the commissioner of the RCMP is a federal government Deputy Minister, with their own additional and considerable set of legal authorities vested by the RCMP Act. They’re a senior government executive of a profoundly challenging ‘department’. I think any commissioner is likely going to be captured by the bureaucratic institution to some considerable degree. If any of us are hoping to see a more inspiring leader come out of the upper echelons of that organization to head it up, I doubt we’ll often see that. While there are some very good leaders near the top, that may not be who the government looks at and looks for.

Lucki’s time should be done soon. It’ll be interesting to see who’s next.
 

FSTO

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Functionally, the commissioner of the RCMP is a federal government Deputy Minister, with their own additional and considerable set of legal authorities vested by the RCMP Act. They’re a senior government executive of a profoundly challenging ‘department’. I think any commissioner is likely going to be captured by the bureaucratic institution to some considerable degree. If any of us are hoping to see a more inspiring leader come out of the upper echelons of that organization to head it up, I doubt we’ll often see that. While there are some very good leaders near the top, that may not be who the government looks at and looks for.

Lucki’s time should be done soon. It’ll be interesting to see who’s next.
Maybe it’s time for the RCMP to get out of the provincial police role and become a truly federal police force? It’s pretty unwieldy now with it being a rural force and First Nations force and urban force. Like many of our institutions there needs to be a deep reset as to its reason for existing and come up with options for renewal, relevance and effectiveness.
 

brihard

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Maybe it’s time for the RCMP to get out of the provincial police role and become a truly federal police force? It’s pretty unwieldy now with it being a rural force and First Nations force and urban force. Like many of our institutions there needs to be a deep reset as to its reason for existing and come up with options for renewal, relevance and effectiveness.
That’s up to the provinces I guess. Part of the challenge there is that any province or municipality that develops their own force immediately discards a significant federal subsidization of their policing costs. That’s a lot. There’s also infrastructure, training, IM/IT (this one is HUGE), and various other things to consider.

Your point has merit. It just comes with a large bill. Watch Surrey and watch what Alberta considers.
 

FSTO

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That’s up to the provinces I guess. Part of the challenge there is that any province or municipality that develops their own force immediately discards a significant federal subsidization of their policing costs. That’s a lot. There’s also infrastructure, training, IM/IT (this one is HUGE), and various other things to consider.

Your point has merit. It just comes with a large bill. Watch Surrey and watch what Alberta considers.
Oh I understand. They could repurpose Depot as a provincial police training centre. The subsidy can be transferred to municipalities.
Rural policing needs to be more responsive though. A lot of theft occurs on farms due to long response times.
 

lenaitch

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Maybe it’s time for the RCMP to get out of the provincial police role and become a truly federal police force? It’s pretty unwieldy now with it being a rural force and First Nations force and urban force. Like many of our institutions there needs to be a deep reset as to its reason for existing and come up with options for renewal, relevance and effectiveness.
Discussions, studies, and op-ed comments have been made on this topic for years, and will no doubt continue, but if people are envisioning something along the lines of a 'Canadian FBI', it's more complicated than than. The US has federal and state law which spawned separate federal and state law enforcement (the plot basis for half of the US TV cop shows) but in Canada, the administration of justice is a provincial matter. I suppose, by agreement, the RCMP could take on a lead role for cross-jurisdictional or pan-Canadian criminal matters, but there are not many statutes that specifically empower the RCMP over other police services.

In addition to that, I imagine they would still be responsible for frontline law enforcement in the three federal territories, but I don't know the particular legislation governing them. I understand that, in contract provinces, the federal government pays roughly 30% (as Brihard just mentioned) so many provinces would be hard-pressed to carry on alone. In many rural areas, the current staffing would be looked back upon fondly. Also, as mentioned, the behind-the-scenes support services are huge costs. Things like forensics, telecoms and aviation are hugely expensive, and if there was some hope that they would continue on in those areas would leave the RCMP kinda-sorta involved in frontline policing.

On thing that has always struck me as curious with the likes of the FBI and other federal agencies is that, in the Canadian experience, in law enforcement you learn your trade, gain your experience, 'cut your teeth' on low level investigations at the local level and get exposed to increasingly serious and complex roles. I've often wondered how those US federal agencies do that - how to learn to connect with joe-public. Maybe that's part of the problem.
 

lenaitch

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Oh I understand. They could repurpose Depot as a provincial police training centre. The subsidy can be transferred to municipalities.
Rural policing needs to be more responsive though. A lot of theft occurs on farms due to long response times.
Ok, there's one or two or three provinces covered. The Atlantic provinces aren't going to ship their personnel to Regina for training.

I'd view a 'kick the bums out' a little more seriously if areas like the lower mainland BC could get their act together and take on their highly-populated area with a single service. Even a large chuck of Greater Halifax is covered by the RCMP.

Federal subsidies go to provinces; it's up to them how to further distribute them.
 

KevinB

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On thing that has always struck me as curious with the likes of the FBI and other federal agencies is that, in the Canadian experience, in law enforcement you learn your trade, gain your experience, 'cut your teeth' on low level investigations at the local level and get exposed to increasingly serious and complex roles. I've often wondered how those US federal agencies do that - how to learn to connect with joe-public. Maybe that's part of the problem.

Fed recruiting of former Mil or local LE helps, as it gives background experience.
Other than those personnel, in my experience the direct hires from college most don’t learn and that results a large divide exists between Fed and other LE. With the exception being Fed Task Forces with join personnel.

I have met some fantastic Fed LEO’s and am friends with a bunch. Others well, I wouldn’t piss on if they where on fire.
 

Good2Golf

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Functionally, the commissioner of the RCMP is a federal government Deputy Minister, with their own additional and considerable set of legal authorities vested by the RCMP Act. They’re a senior government executive of a profoundly challenging ‘department’. I think any commissioner is likely going to be captured by the bureaucratic institution to some considerable degree. If any of us are hoping to see a more inspiring leader come out of the upper echelons of that organization to head it up, I doubt we’ll often see that. While there are some very good leaders near the top, that may not be who the government looks at and looks for.

Lucki’s time should be done soon. It’ll be interesting to see who’s next.
Is there a place to have a construct similar to the CAF/DND where CDS is a ‘DM Ops’ and DND DM is a DM ‘Admin’ of the Department?
 

lenaitch

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Fed recruiting of former Mil or local LE helps, as it gives background experience.
Other than those personnel, in my experience the direct hires from college most don’t learn and that results a large divide exists between Fed and other LE. With the exception being Fed Task Forces with join personnel.

I have met some fantastic Fed LEO’s and am friends with a bunch. Others well, I wouldn’t piss on if they where on fire.
Spending all of my life in Ontario, my working exposure to the RCMP is quite limited, but when I did, it often became quite easy to discern between members who came from a contract province or uniformed front line duties such as Pearson airport when they did that, and those who were posted to 'O' Division (Ontario, a federal policing non-contract role) directly from Depot. I always wondered why they would do that.
 

Good2Golf

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Because that works so well for DND/CAF?
It did reasonably well when the DM and CDS appreciated and respected each other enough to make the relationship between ops and admin work. When the CDS is a narcissist and opportunist and the DM is allegedly a toxic stealth gaslighter and believes that they own ops too…a little less so.
 
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